• Craig Black (14/14) Nov 29 2007 Listening to Walter argue with everyone about const again I had to laugh...
• Jarrett Billingsley (4/18) Nov 29 2007 Inner classes, all the import features, opAssign, and implicit casts are...
• Bruno Medeiros (7/30) Dec 09 2007 Yes, that happened a lot for features that were added, but for requests
• Paul Anderson (3/22) Nov 29 2007 So does this mean the system is broken or that it works? :-)
• Craig Black (4/30) Nov 29 2007 Walter's doing a great job IMO. I guess you could say he just has a uni...
• Bruce Adams (13/49) Nov 29 2007 Given how often people ask for new features and given how often the new ...
• Craig Black (4/14) Nov 30 2007 True. Walter originally didn't like templates because he hated STL. I
• BCS (7/25) Nov 29 2007 Wow! That sneaky man! He's bating us to drive a debate. That is an incre...
• Sean Kelly (6/14) Nov 29 2007 I've done this from time to time with Tango, because I discovered that
• Christopher Wright (2/30) Nov 29 2007 Isn't that how Linus Torvalds works?
• Walter Bright (1/1) Nov 29 2007 At least I believe in what I'm doing!
• Craig Black (3/4) Nov 29 2007 Keep up the good work!
• Bill Baxter (6/21) Nov 29 2007 I think that's precisely his job. Nobody wants to use a language that's...
• Jesse Phillips (13/36) Nov 29 2007 I agree here, Walter has to be pessimistic about changes, otherwise
• Walter Bright (9/13) Nov 29 2007 I'll often resist an idea because the existing implementations in other
• Dan (6/22) Nov 29 2007 Yeah D, supposedly being an improvement on C++, needs to be at least a l...
• James Dennett (12/26) Dec 19 2007 C++ const has a form of transitivity: if an object A is const,
• Clay Smith (3/22) Nov 29 2007 It's sure better than giving in to users demands quickly and then
• 0ffh (4/9) Nov 29 2007 Well, if I had such a good language,

"Craig Black" <cblack ara.com> writes:

Listening to Walter argue with everyone about const again I had to laugh. 
Does anyone else notice this pattern?

1) People propose an idea/complaint about a language feature
2) Walter makes a strong case for the way D does it
3) People press the point but Walter is stubborn
4) People get tired of arguing
5) Many months or years pass
6) For unknown reasons Walter changes his mind and makes the proposed change

I remember a time when Walter disliked the idea of adding templates to D.  I 
also remember a time when Walter argued furiously against adding const. 
More recently he defended at length the 3-keyword const implementation.  He 
always argues his points so adamantly that whenever he changes his mind it 
seems like a religious conversion. :)

-Craig 

"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:

"Craig Black" <cblack ara.com> wrote in message 
news:fims7s$u44$1 digitalmars.com...
 Listening to Walter argue with everyone about const again I had to laugh. 
 Does anyone else notice this pattern?

 1) People propose an idea/complaint about a language feature
 2) Walter makes a strong case for the way D does it
 3) People press the point but Walter is stubborn
 4) People get tired of arguing
 5) Many months or years pass
 6) For unknown reasons Walter changes his mind and makes the proposed 
 change

 I remember a time when Walter disliked the idea of adding templates to D. 
 I also remember a time when Walter argued furiously against adding const. 
 More recently he defended at length the 3-keyword const implementation. 
 He always argues his points so adamantly that whenever he changes his mind 
 it seems like a religious conversion. :)

Inner classes, all the import features, opAssign, and implicit casts are a 
few other features I can think of that came about this way. 

Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+spam com.gmail> writes:

Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 "Craig Black" <cblack ara.com> wrote in message 
 news:fims7s$u44$1 digitalmars.com...
 Listening to Walter argue with everyone about const again I had to laugh. 
 Does anyone else notice this pattern?

 1) People propose an idea/complaint about a language feature
 2) Walter makes a strong case for the way D does it
 3) People press the point but Walter is stubborn
 4) People get tired of arguing
 5) Many months or years pass
 6) For unknown reasons Walter changes his mind and makes the proposed 
 change

 I remember a time when Walter disliked the idea of adding templates to D. 
 I also remember a time when Walter argued furiously against adding const. 
 More recently he defended at length the 3-keyword const implementation. 
 He always argues his points so adamantly that whenever he changes his mind 
 it seems like a religious conversion. :)

 
 Inner classes, all the import features, opAssign, and implicit casts are a 
 few other features I can think of that came about this way. 
 
 

Yes, that happened a lot for features that were added, but for requests 
that are more like changes to current behavior rather than additions 
(such as value typed arrays), I think it rarely happened.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - MSc in CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D

Paul Anderson <paul.d.anderson.removethis comcast.andthis.net> writes:

Craig Black Wrote:

 Listening to Walter argue with everyone about const again I had to laugh. 
 Does anyone else notice this pattern?
 
 1) People propose an idea/complaint about a language feature
 2) Walter makes a strong case for the way D does it
 3) People press the point but Walter is stubborn
 4) People get tired of arguing
 5) Many months or years pass
 6) For unknown reasons Walter changes his mind and makes the proposed change
 
 I remember a time when Walter disliked the idea of adding templates to D.  I 
 also remember a time when Walter argued furiously against adding const. 
 More recently he defended at length the 3-keyword const implementation.  He 
 always argues his points so adamantly that whenever he changes his mind it 
 seems like a religious conversion. :)
 
 -Craig 
 
 

So does this mean the system is broken or that it works? :-)

Paul

"Craig Black" <cblack ara.com> writes:

"Paul Anderson" <paul.d.anderson.removethis comcast.andthis.net> wrote in 
message news:fin002$16l8$1 digitalmars.com...
 Craig Black Wrote:

 Listening to Walter argue with everyone about const again I had to laugh.
 Does anyone else notice this pattern?

 1) People propose an idea/complaint about a language feature
 2) Walter makes a strong case for the way D does it
 3) People press the point but Walter is stubborn
 4) People get tired of arguing
 5) Many months or years pass
 6) For unknown reasons Walter changes his mind and makes the proposed 
 change

 I remember a time when Walter disliked the idea of adding templates to D. 
 I
 also remember a time when Walter argued furiously against adding const.
 More recently he defended at length the 3-keyword const implementation. 
 He
 always argues his points so adamantly that whenever he changes his mind 
 it
 seems like a religious conversion. :)

 -Craig

 So does this mean the system is broken or that it works? :-)

 Paul

Walter's doing a great job IMO.  I guess you could say he just has a unique 
procedure for assimilating proposed language features.. 

"Bruce Adams" <tortoise_74 yeah.who.co.uk> writes:

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:50:52 -0000, Craig Black <cblack ara.com> wrote:

 "Paul Anderson" <paul.d.anderson.removethis comcast.andthis.net> wrote in
 message news:fin002$16l8$1 digitalmars.com...
 Craig Black Wrote:

 Listening to Walter argue with everyone about const again I had to  
 laugh.
 Does anyone else notice this pattern?

 1) People propose an idea/complaint about a language feature
 2) Walter makes a strong case for the way D does it
 3) People press the point but Walter is stubborn
 4) People get tired of arguing
 5) Many months or years pass
 6) For unknown reasons Walter changes his mind and makes the proposed
 change

 I remember a time when Walter disliked the idea of adding templates to  
 D.
 I
 also remember a time when Walter argued furiously against adding const.
 More recently he defended at length the 3-keyword const implementation.
 He
 always argues his points so adamantly that whenever he changes his mind
 it
 seems like a religious conversion. :)

 -Craig

 So does this mean the system is broken or that it works? :-)

 Paul

 Walter's doing a great job IMO.  I guess you could say he just has a  
 unique
 procedure for assimilating proposed language features..

Given how often people ask for new features and given how often the new  
features
asked for are dumb, either not thought through or based on a lack of  
knowledge of the
language you can hardly blame a language designer for wanting to play  
devil's advocate
even for features they like. Not to mention the time it takes to implement  
them. I had
the impression templates were always on the cards but are a complex  
feature.

Regards,

Bruce.

"Craig Black" <cblack ara.com> writes:

 Given how often people ask for new features and given how often the new 
 features
 asked for are dumb, either not thought through or based on a lack of 
 knowledge of the
 language you can hardly blame a language designer for wanting to play 
 devil's advocate
 even for features they like. Not to mention the time it takes to implement 
 them. I had
 the impression templates were always on the cards but are a complex 
 feature.

True.  Walter originally didn't like templates because he hated STL.  I 
suggested he look at Modern C++ Design to get another persepective.  Of 
course, this was long before Alexandrescu got involved in D.

-Craig 

BCS <ao pathlink.com> writes:

Reply to Craig,

 Listening to Walter argue with everyone about const again I had to
 laugh. Does anyone else notice this pattern?
 
 1) People propose an idea/complaint about a language feature
 2) Walter makes a strong case for the way D does it
 3) People press the point but Walter is stubborn
 4) People get tired of arguing
 5) Many months or years pass
 6) For unknown reasons Walter changes his mind and makes the proposed
 change
 I remember a time when Walter disliked the idea of adding templates to
 D.  I also remember a time when Walter argued furiously against adding
 const. More recently he defended at length the 3-keyword const
 implementation.  He always argues his points so adamantly that
 whenever he changes his mind it seems like a religious conversion. :)
 
 -Craig
 

Wow! That sneaky man! He's bating us to drive a debate. That is an incredibly 
cool way to hash out designs. And the long wait would be to keep us from 
catching on.

(The above is said in a joking but not condescending tone. I don't known 
that his is what Walter is doing but if it is, it is actually a rather
interesting 
way to do stuff.)

Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:

BCS wrote:
 
 Wow! That sneaky man! He's bating us to drive a debate. That is an 
 incredibly cool way to hash out designs. And the long wait would be to 
 keep us from catching on.
 
 (The above is said in a joking but not condescending tone. I don't known 
 that his is what Walter is doing but if it is, it is actually a rather 
 interesting way to do stuff.)

I've done this from time to time with Tango, because I discovered that 
it is extremely difficult to solicit feedback for theoretical changes. 
Much easier to just do something that seems reasonable, let everyone 
know what was done, and then wait for people to complain.


Sean

Christopher Wright <dhasenan gmail.com> writes:

BCS wrote:
 Reply to Craig,
 
 Listening to Walter argue with everyone about const again I had to
 laugh. Does anyone else notice this pattern?

 1) People propose an idea/complaint about a language feature
 2) Walter makes a strong case for the way D does it
 3) People press the point but Walter is stubborn
 4) People get tired of arguing
 5) Many months or years pass
 6) For unknown reasons Walter changes his mind and makes the proposed
 change
 I remember a time when Walter disliked the idea of adding templates to
 D.  I also remember a time when Walter argued furiously against adding
 const. More recently he defended at length the 3-keyword const
 implementation.  He always argues his points so adamantly that
 whenever he changes his mind it seems like a religious conversion. :)

 -Craig

 
 Wow! That sneaky man! He's bating us to drive a debate. That is an 
 incredibly cool way to hash out designs. And the long wait would be to 
 keep us from catching on.
 
 (The above is said in a joking but not condescending tone. I don't known 
 that his is what Walter is doing but if it is, it is actually a rather 
 interesting way to do stuff.)

Isn't that how Linus Torvalds works?

Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:

At least I believe in what I'm doing!

"Craig Black" <cblack ara.com> writes:

"Walter Bright" <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:fin810$1oi5$3 digitalmars.com...
 At least I believe in what I'm doing!

Keep up the good work! 

Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup billbaxter.com> writes:

Craig Black wrote:
 Listening to Walter argue with everyone about const again I had to laugh. 
 Does anyone else notice this pattern?
 
 1) People propose an idea/complaint about a language feature
 2) Walter makes a strong case for the way D does it
 3) People press the point but Walter is stubborn
 4) People get tired of arguing
 5) Many months or years pass
 6) For unknown reasons Walter changes his mind and makes the proposed change
 
 I remember a time when Walter disliked the idea of adding templates to D.  I 
 also remember a time when Walter argued furiously against adding const. 
 More recently he defended at length the 3-keyword const implementation.  He 
 always argues his points so adamantly that whenever he changes his mind it 
 seems like a religious conversion. :)

I think that's precisely his job.  Nobody wants to use a language that's 
changing its grammar on a weekly basis.  So his job is to keep it as 
stable as possible and not change it without overwhelmingly convincing 
evidence that a change would be an overall win.

--bb

Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips gmail.com> writes:

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:52:03 +0900, Bill Baxter wrote:

 Craig Black wrote:
 Listening to Walter argue with everyone about const again I had to
 laugh. Does anyone else notice this pattern?
 
 1) People propose an idea/complaint about a language feature 2) Walter
 makes a strong case for the way D does it 3) People press the point but
 Walter is stubborn 4) People get tired of arguing
 5) Many months or years pass
 6) For unknown reasons Walter changes his mind and makes the proposed
 change
 
 I remember a time when Walter disliked the idea of adding templates to
 D.  I also remember a time when Walter argued furiously against adding
 const. More recently he defended at length the 3-keyword const
 implementation.  He always argues his points so adamantly that whenever
 he changes his mind it seems like a religious conversion. :)

 
 I think that's precisely his job.  Nobody wants to use a language that's
 changing its grammar on a weekly basis.  So his job is to keep it as
 stable as possible and not change it without overwhelmingly convincing
 evidence that a change would be an overall win.
 
 --bb

I agree here, Walter has to be pessimistic about changes, otherwise 
features would be added remove continually because the demographic has 
change a little. When people want something an are declined they must 
look at there reasons for wanting it an come up with good arguments for 
it. This also means that they have to explain how they wish to use it and 
where else it would be useful. Even if Walter saw the idea as good 
resisting it until he gets this information will make for a better design 
later.

I would like to point out string, which was very much detested, but it is 
finally here. However string is not just an alias to char[] and it is not 
the String class that was wanted, but instead an alias to a const(char[]) 
something useful in the face of const I suppose.

Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:

Jesse Phillips wrote:
 I would like to point out string, which was very much detested, but it is 
 finally here. However string is not just an alias to char[] and it is not 
 the String class that was wanted, but instead an alias to a const(char[]) 
 something useful in the face of const I suppose.

I'll often resist an idea because the existing implementations in other 
languages suck. I'd rather delay implementing it until a non-sucking 
design can be found. C++ const is a classic example of that. C++ const 
is a first generation design, and has two crippling shortcomings: no 
invariant, and no transitivity.

C++ const was leading edge technology when it was designed, but it's 
obsolete today.

Only time will tell if D's const sucks or not :-)

Dan <murpsoft hotmail.com> writes:

Walter Bright Wrote:

 Jesse Phillips wrote:
 I would like to point out string, which was very much detested, but it is 
 finally here. However string is not just an alias to char[] and it is not 
 the String class that was wanted, but instead an alias to a const(char[]) 
 something useful in the face of const I suppose.

 
 I'll often resist an idea because the existing implementations in other 
 languages suck. I'd rather delay implementing it until a non-sucking 
 design can be found. C++ const is a classic example of that. C++ const 
 is a first generation design, and has two crippling shortcomings: no 
 invariant, and no transitivity.
 
 C++ const was leading edge technology when it was designed, but it's 
 obsolete today.
 
 Only time will tell if D's const sucks or not :-)

Yeah D, supposedly being an improvement on C++, needs to be at least a little
better than C++ for any given feature.  It won't be perfect, but it'll
certainly be *better*

One day I'm most certain we'll all be standing around gawking at the suckiness
of D.  Walter's task here is to be the one delaying that day.  He's doing a
superb job of it.

People bitch about the way Linus rejects things because he just flames people. 
Walter defends the current state with logical arguments and one feels almost
goaded (sp?) into coming up with something better.

Regards,
Dan

James Dennett <jdennett acm.org> writes:

Walter Bright wrote:
 Jesse Phillips wrote:
 I would like to point out string, which was very much detested, but it
 is finally here. However string is not just an alias to char[] and it
 is not the String class that was wanted, but instead an alias to a
 const(char[]) something useful in the face of const I suppose.

 
 I'll often resist an idea because the existing implementations in other
 languages suck. I'd rather delay implementing it until a non-sucking
 design can be found. C++ const is a classic example of that. C++ const
 is a first generation design, and has two crippling shortcomings: no
 invariant, and no transitivity.

C++ const has a form of transitivity: if an object A is const,
and A contains an object B, then B is also const (and so on
recursively).

Mercifully that doesn't apply to objects merely associated
with A.

 C++ const was leading edge technology when it was designed, but it's
 obsolete today.

Reality shows otherwise, for many reasons.

 Only time will tell if D's const sucks or not :-)

We'll have to see what it looks like when the dust settles.  (Now,
a framework for user-extensible qualifiers would be quite something
if it could be done well.  I imagine Andrei might have opinions
there too.)

-- James

Clay Smith <clayasaurus gmail.com> writes:

Craig Black wrote:
 Listening to Walter argue with everyone about const again I had to laugh. 
 Does anyone else notice this pattern?
 
 1) People propose an idea/complaint about a language feature
 2) Walter makes a strong case for the way D does it
 3) People press the point but Walter is stubborn
 4) People get tired of arguing
 5) Many months or years pass
 6) For unknown reasons Walter changes his mind and makes the proposed change
 
 I remember a time when Walter disliked the idea of adding templates to D.  I 
 also remember a time when Walter argued furiously against adding const. 
 More recently he defended at length the 3-keyword const implementation.  He 
 always argues his points so adamantly that whenever he changes his mind it 
 seems like a religious conversion. :)
 
 -Craig 
 
 

It's sure better than giving in to users demands quickly and then 
removing features months later.

0ffh <frank frankhirsch.youknow.what.todo.net> writes:

Craig Black wrote:
 Listening to Walter argue with everyone about const again I had to laugh. 
 Does anyone else notice this pattern?
 [you know it]
 -Craig 
 

Well, if I had such a good language,
I'd also be rather careful in changing it. =)

regards, frank