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digitalmars.D - D1 to be discontinued on December 31, 2012

reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Hello everyone,


This is the end of the year, a good time to look both back and forward. 
Walter and I have had a long discussion about our strategy going forth. 
But before that, let's take a quick look at this year.

By all accounts, 2011 has been a terrific year for D. There has been 
unprecedented growth in the community; the disreputation of a 
fragmented, balkanized community is finally becoming a matter of the 
past; the community flame wars that were the norm in the past have given 
way to constructive dialog; there's more interest and more talk about D 
in public and private events; TDPL has been selling steadily; D's brand 
and major position on the programming languages landscape have become 
recognizable to many programmers; and most importantly, the community 
contribution to the compiler and standard library design and 
implementation has blown off the most optimistic expectations.

Going forward, we want to focus on D's core strengths: expressiveness, 
modeling power, and efficiency. We believe D is a very compelling 
programming language of this era, and we want to substantiate that 
belief with equally compelling libraries and applications.

In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are 
discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than one 
year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries and 
applications to D2.

Phasing D1 away will not only clarify our vision, but also free up 
considerable time to concentrate on D's two largest issues: (1) quality 
of compiler implementation and (2) breadth of the standard library. 
These two matters prevent users from fully tapping into all of D's core 
assets. They affect expressiveness because code that's supposed to work 
doesn't or necessitates ugly workarounds; they affect modeling power 
because bugs prevent full creative uses of the language, and lacuna in 
the standard library limit the "bricks" to use when building; and they 
affect efficiency because, evidently, a quality compiler and a good 
standard library are essential ingredients in writing efficient code.

Best wishes for the next year and hopefully many years to come to an 
awesome community. Let's continue working together to reach D's 
ambitious potential.


Thanks,

Andrei
Dec 10 2011
next sibling parent "F i L" <witte2008 gmail.com> writes:
Should have set the date to Dec 21st so D1's end would coincide 
with the end of the world in 2012 ;)
Dec 10 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/10/11 3:19 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
[snip]

I'm glad this message has been met with virtually no reaction! 
Nevertheless, I reddit'ed it to announce the decision to the larger 
community.

http://reddit.com/r/programming/comments/n8sit/d1_to_be_discontinued_on_december_31_2012_after/


Andrei
Dec 11 2011
next sibling parent reply Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Sunday, December 11, 2011 14:56:50 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/10/11 3:19 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 [snip]
 
 I'm glad this message has been met with virtually no reaction!
 Nevertheless, I reddit'ed it to announce the decision to the larger
 community.
 
 http://reddit.com/r/programming/comments/n8sit/d1_to_be_discontinued_on_dece
 mber_31_2012_after/

Well, at this point, I expect that pretty much no one who only uses D1 and not D2 does much in this newsgroup, and anyone who only uses D2 is not going to have a problem with it. The only ones likely too make a fuss about it here would be those who use both, and since they use both presumably they're okay with this in the long run as long as D2 is up to snuff, and that situation has been steadily improving. Also, since the actual date is over a year off, there's plenty of time for things to improve quite a bit more. Not to mention, just because dmd1 won't be geting any more bug fixes doesn't mean that you can't use it anymore - and since it's on github, interested parties can always fork it. I'm still a bit surprised that pretty much no one has responded, but then again, you posted it only about 24 hours ago. So between that and the fact that most of the people around here focus on D2, I expect that the number of people who have would have read it and would be unhappy about it is rather limited. - Jonathan M Davis
Dec 11 2011
parent Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 12/11/2011 11:06 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 On Sunday, 11 December 2011 at 21:22:20 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 Not to mention, just because dmd1 won't be geting any more bug fixes
 doesn't mean that you can't use it anymore - and since it's on github,
 interested parties can always fork it.

This raises a question: will the D1 compiler be made redistributable when it's discontinued?

I think LDC/GDC are redistributable already?
Dec 11 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Sunday, 11 December 2011 at 21:22:20 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:
 Not to mention, just because dmd1 won't be geting any more bug 
 fixes doesn't mean that you can't use it anymore - and since 
 it's on github, interested parties can always fork it.

This raises a question: will the D1 compiler be made redistributable when it's discontinued?
Dec 11 2011
parent Adam Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
Vladimir Panteleev Wrote:
 This raises a question: will the D1 compiler be made 
 redistributable when it's discontinued?

Isn't it already licensed for redistribution by the Tango folks?
Dec 11 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Iain Buclaw <ibuclaw ubuntu.com> writes:
On 11 December 2011 22:20, Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> wrote:
 On 12/11/2011 11:06 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 On Sunday, 11 December 2011 at 21:22:20 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 Not to mention, just because dmd1 won't be geting any more bug fixes
 doesn't mean that you can't use it anymore - and since it's on github,
 interested parties can always fork it.

This raises a question: will the D1 compiler be made redistributable when it's discontinued?

I think LDC/GDC are redistributable already?

I will keep support in tree. There will be no future merge changes to the D1 library that is bundled with GDC however. -- Iain Buclaw *(p < e ? p++ : p) = (c & 0x0f) + '0';
Dec 11 2011
prev sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Sunday, 11 December 2011 at 22:29:38 UTC, Adam Ruppe wrote:
 Vladimir Panteleev Wrote:
 This raises a question: will the D1 compiler be made 
 redistributable when it's discontinued?

Isn't it already licensed for redistribution by the Tango folks?

Right, I forgot about that. That's nice, because the Tango project would be one of the parties most interested in keeping D1 alive.
Dec 11 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips+d gmail.com> writes:
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 15:19:02 -0600, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Hello everyone,
 ...
 In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
 discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than one
 year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries and
 applications to D2.

I find this an interesting choice. While a good portion of the community has moved over and libraries have supported both or just D2, this could result in another rift. With this kind of choice it may be important to prioritize those issues found by the D1 users that are beginning their port. I haven't used D1 for a long time so I can't claim a bad choice here.
Dec 11 2011
parent reply Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips+d gmail.com> writes:
On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:57:02 +0000, Jesse Phillips wrote:

 I haven't used D1 for a long time so I can't claim a bad choice here.

Actually I think I can state an opinion here. The two things that stand out in my mind are. * There has been a statement of supporting D1 while it is in use (or at least has a decent number of users). Maybe there aren't any, I don't see replies claiming such. * One argument against dropping it was that the bugs were common between both languages, so the effort isn't that great to maintain both. Did that change with the increase in issues being fixed? So I tried a thought experiment. What if this was D2. If D3 was taking its place? If D just got up and died one year from now? How is the Python users handling it? http://www.reddit.com/tb/n3q7q And I'd be ok with it. I guess that makes sense, I have been using D2 even with it breaking code every couple steps. But the truth is, I'm using it for what it is now, not what it will be. What I use right now will still be here, and all the code I'm using is available. Sure getting better *cough* tool *coff* support and shared libraries is something to look forward to, but I'm not using them now. (So in one year, D will live on, and lets hope this improvement continues) PS. The reddit discussion about Python3's UTF support is interesting. Sounds like D got it right, and Python 3 failed.
Dec 12 2011
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/12/2011 10:26 PM, Jesse Phillips wrote:
 PS. The reddit discussion about Python3's UTF support is interesting.
 Sounds like D got it right, and Python 3 failed.

I had the huge advantage of having done two UTF implementations previously (a Java compiler and a Javascript compiler). Interestingly, C++11 has adopted fundamentally the same design as D. "Python also uses the environment variables (which as you know where garbage) to decide on the default encoding of files." That can never end well :-)
Dec 12 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/12/2011 10:26 PM, Jesse Phillips wrote:
 On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:57:02 +0000, Jesse Phillips wrote:

 I haven't used D1 for a long time so I can't claim a bad choice here.

Actually I think I can state an opinion here. The two things that stand out in my mind are. * There has been a statement of supporting D1 while it is in use (or at least has a decent number of users). Maybe there aren't any, I don't see replies claiming such.

There don't seem to be many anymore.
 * One argument against dropping it was that the bugs were common between
 both languages, so the effort isn't that great to maintain both. Did that
 change with the increase in issues being fixed?

Not really, but the code bases steadily diverge and it's getting steadily harder. It was more a matter of focus.
Dec 12 2011
next sibling parent Bane <branimir.milosavljevic gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright Wrote:

 On 12/12/2011 10:26 PM, Jesse Phillips wrote:
 On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:57:02 +0000, Jesse Phillips wrote:

 I haven't used D1 for a long time so I can't claim a bad choice here.

Actually I think I can state an opinion here. The two things that stand out in my mind are. * There has been a statement of supporting D1 while it is in use (or at least has a decent number of users). Maybe there aren't any, I don't see replies claiming such.

There don't seem to be many anymore.

Moving all efforts to polishing D2 is the right way.
Dec 13 2011
prev sibling parent reply torhu <no spam.invalid> writes:
On 13.12.2011 08:35, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/12/2011 10:26 PM, Jesse Phillips wrote:
  On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:57:02 +0000, Jesse Phillips wrote:

  I haven't used D1 for a long time so I can't claim a bad choice here.

Actually I think I can state an opinion here. The two things that stand out in my mind are. * There has been a statement of supporting D1 while it is in use (or at least has a decent number of users). Maybe there aren't any, I don't see replies claiming such.

There don't seem to be many anymore.

I've got one D1 spare time project that I'm still maintaining. Zero D2 projects, as I tried it and then decided to wait until it has had more time to mature. I'm still using DMD 1.061, since there are very few remaining serious compiler bugs. The compiler has gotten pretty good, so the incentive to upgrade is not very strong. And I rarely need to ask questions about D1, since I've been using it for 5 years now. I have a feeling new users mostly go for D2, only to discover that it's not ready for prime time. Then they just leave, instead of checking out D1. Of course, I'm just guessing.
Dec 13 2011
next sibling parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/13/11 2:47 PM, torhu wrote:
 I've got one D1 spare time project that I'm still maintaining. Zero D2
 projects, as I tried it and then decided to wait until it has had more
 time to mature.

 I'm still using DMD 1.061, since there are very few remaining serious
 compiler bugs. The compiler has gotten pretty good, so the incentive to
 upgrade is not very strong. And I rarely need to ask questions about D1,
 since I've been using it for 5 years now.

The important question here is, what is the future of D1? In Walter's and my opinion, D1 is a nice language but simply does not have enough horsepower to compete successfully against either today's established languages or their other contenders. D1's modeling power is insufficient (e.g. can't define value types). Its view of concurrency and parallelism is at best naive, and in any case incomparably inferior to C++11 or Java. Although D1 offers lambdas, they are slow unless special compilation techniques are used (which tend to fall apart on only moderately complex code). Finally, there's no notion of immutability, which hurts all of modularity, modeling power, concurrency, and functional style. It's difficult to work on something you don't believe in. Yes, we could keep D1 on artificial life support until we retire, but to what end? The story with D2 is entirely different. D2 has very lofty goals, and most of its past and current implementation insufficiencies are due to that. But D2 has legs; non-PL people often confuse what we know are transitory issues with fatal language design flaws. D2 does have a few design flaws (every language does) but none is major, and most importantly, it has a lot going for it: generic and generative abilities that beat the pants off all other languages; an innovative concurrency model; and nicely integration across several paradigms. That's a lot of muscle on a relatively small frame. (Yeah, "too many notes.")
 I have a feeling new users mostly go for D2, only to discover that it's
 not ready for prime time. Then they just leave, instead of checking out
 D1. Of course, I'm just guessing.

At this point what we need is to make D2 ready for prime time, not invite people to our B-list offer. Andrei
Dec 13 2011
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-13 21:47, torhu wrote:
 On 13.12.2011 08:35, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/12/2011 10:26 PM, Jesse Phillips wrote:
 On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:57:02 +0000, Jesse Phillips wrote:

 I haven't used D1 for a long time so I can't claim a bad choice here.

Actually I think I can state an opinion here. The two things that stand out in my mind are. * There has been a statement of supporting D1 while it is in use (or at least has a decent number of users). Maybe there aren't any, I don't see replies claiming such.

There don't seem to be many anymore.

I've got one D1 spare time project that I'm still maintaining. Zero D2 projects, as I tried it and then decided to wait until it has had more time to mature. I'm still using DMD 1.061, since there are very few remaining serious compiler bugs. The compiler has gotten pretty good, so the incentive to upgrade is not very strong. And I rarely need to ask questions about D1, since I've been using it for 5 years now.

It's the same for me. But when I do ask questions everyone is surprised that I use D1. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/13/2011 11:27 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-13 21:47, torhu wrote:
 I'm still using DMD 1.061, since there are very few remaining serious
 compiler bugs. The compiler has gotten pretty good, so the incentive to
 upgrade is not very strong. And I rarely need to ask questions about D1,
 since I've been using it for 5 years now.

It's the same for me. But when I do ask questions everyone is surprised that I use D1.

Well, since torhu is using 1.061 and appears to be happy with it, it doesn't look like he needs continuing support. Also, D1 isn't going to vanish in a puff of smoke. It'll still be there on github and on the web site.
Dec 14 2011
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 09:03, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/13/2011 11:27 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-13 21:47, torhu wrote:
 I'm still using DMD 1.061, since there are very few remaining serious
 compiler bugs. The compiler has gotten pretty good, so the incentive to
 upgrade is not very strong. And I rarely need to ask questions about D1,
 since I've been using it for 5 years now.

It's the same for me. But when I do ask questions everyone is surprised that I use D1.

Well, since torhu is using 1.061 and appears to be happy with it, it doesn't look like he needs continuing support.

I would probably get by without support. But there are a few features I would really like before the development on D1 ends. I'm thinking particular on dynamic libraries. The latest release was a great release which brought 64bit support to Mac OS X and new CTFE features. I wouldn't won't to miss that because I'm using D1. It seems CTFE is still not completely finished and I think it's sad that every feature in D1 won't be implemented.
 Also, D1 isn't going to vanish in a puff of smoke. It'll still be there
 on github and on the web site.

I know that. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/14/2011 1:06 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 But there are a few features I would
 really like before the development on D1 ends. I'm thinking particular on
 dynamic libraries.

I am too. Shared library support is bubbling up on the priority list :-)
Dec 14 2011
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 10:40, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 1:06 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 But there are a few features I would
 really like before the development on D1 ends. I'm thinking particular on
 dynamic libraries.

I am too. Shared library support is bubbling up on the priority list :-)

I'm glad to hear that. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-13 07:26, Jesse Phillips wrote:
 On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:57:02 +0000, Jesse Phillips wrote:

 I haven't used D1 for a long time so I can't claim a bad choice here.

Actually I think I can state an opinion here. The two things that stand out in my mind are. * There has been a statement of supporting D1 while it is in use (or at least has a decent number of users). Maybe there aren't any, I don't see replies claiming such.

I'm still using D1. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2011
parent reply "Mike James" <foo bar.com> writes:
"Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> wrote in message 
news:jc785g$1hpa$2 digitalmars.com...
 On 2011-12-13 07:26, Jesse Phillips wrote:
 On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:57:02 +0000, Jesse Phillips wrote:

 I haven't used D1 for a long time so I can't claim a bad choice here.

Actually I think I can state an opinion here. The two things that stand out in my mind are. * There has been a statement of supporting D1 while it is in use (or at least has a decent number of users). Maybe there aren't any, I don't see replies claiming such.

I'm still using D1.

That'll be one then :-)
 -- 
 /Jacob Carlborg 

Dec 13 2011
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-13 14:09, Mike James wrote:
 "Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> wrote in message
 news:jc785g$1hpa$2 digitalmars.com...
 On 2011-12-13 07:26, Jesse Phillips wrote:
 On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:57:02 +0000, Jesse Phillips wrote:

 I haven't used D1 for a long time so I can't claim a bad choice here.

Actually I think I can state an opinion here. The two things that stand out in my mind are. * There has been a statement of supporting D1 while it is in use (or at least has a decent number of users). Maybe there aren't any, I don't see replies claiming such.

I'm still using D1.

That'll be one then :-)

Yeah, because Andrei has managed to drive away all those who use D1 because of decisions like the one above and without asking the community. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/13/11 10:11 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-13 14:09, Mike James wrote:
 "Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> wrote in message
 news:jc785g$1hpa$2 digitalmars.com...
 On 2011-12-13 07:26, Jesse Phillips wrote:
 On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:57:02 +0000, Jesse Phillips wrote:

 I haven't used D1 for a long time so I can't claim a bad choice here.

Actually I think I can state an opinion here. The two things that stand out in my mind are. * There has been a statement of supporting D1 while it is in use (or at least has a decent number of users). Maybe there aren't any, I don't see replies claiming such.

I'm still using D1.

That'll be one then :-)

Yeah, because Andrei has managed to drive away all those who use D1 because of decisions like the one above and without asking the community.

Apologies for that. Please let Walter and me know what we can do to make migration easier. Thanks, Andrei
Dec 13 2011
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-13 20:54, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/11 10:11 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-13 14:09, Mike James wrote:
 "Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> wrote in message
 news:jc785g$1hpa$2 digitalmars.com...
 On 2011-12-13 07:26, Jesse Phillips wrote:
 On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:57:02 +0000, Jesse Phillips wrote:

 I haven't used D1 for a long time so I can't claim a bad choice here.

Actually I think I can state an opinion here. The two things that stand out in my mind are. * There has been a statement of supporting D1 while it is in use (or at least has a decent number of users). Maybe there aren't any, I don't see replies claiming such.

I'm still using D1.

That'll be one then :-)

Yeah, because Andrei has managed to drive away all those who use D1 because of decisions like the one above and without asking the community.

Apologies for that. Please let Walter and me know what we can do to make migration easier.

I think these decisions shouldn't be made without at least mentioned them to the community before they're made. In this case I had hope that D2 and Phobos would be in a more usable and stable state then it currently is. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-10 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Hello everyone,


 This is the end of the year, a good time to look both back and forward.
 Walter and I have had a long discussion about our strategy going forth.
 But before that, let's take a quick look at this year.

 By all accounts, 2011 has been a terrific year for D. There has been
 unprecedented growth in the community; the disreputation of a
 fragmented, balkanized community is finally becoming a matter of the
 past; the community flame wars that were the norm in the past have given
 way to constructive dialog; there's more interest and more talk about D
 in public and private events; TDPL has been selling steadily; D's brand
 and major position on the programming languages landscape have become
 recognizable to many programmers; and most importantly, the community
 contribution to the compiler and standard library design and
 implementation has blown off the most optimistic expectations.

 Going forward, we want to focus on D's core strengths: expressiveness,
 modeling power, and efficiency. We believe D is a very compelling
 programming language of this era, and we want to substantiate that
 belief with equally compelling libraries and applications.

 In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
 discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than one
 year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries and
 applications to D2.

 Phasing D1 away will not only clarify our vision, but also free up
 considerable time to concentrate on D's two largest issues: (1) quality
 of compiler implementation and (2) breadth of the standard library.
 These two matters prevent users from fully tapping into all of D's core
 assets. They affect expressiveness because code that's supposed to work
 doesn't or necessitates ugly workarounds; they affect modeling power
 because bugs prevent full creative uses of the language, and lacuna in
 the standard library limit the "bricks" to use when building; and they
 affect efficiency because, evidently, a quality compiler and a good
 standard library are essential ingredients in writing efficient code.

 Best wishes for the next year and hopefully many years to come to an
 awesome community. Let's continue working together to reach D's
 ambitious potential.


 Thanks,

 Andrei

That was a disappointment to hear. I really hope that D2 will be more ready than it is now. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 12 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Don <nospam nospam.com> writes:
On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
 discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than one
 year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries and
 applications to D2.

I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions. I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of community consulatation deplorable.
Dec 13 2011
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/13/11 7:52 AM, Don wrote:
 On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
 discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than one
 year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries and
 applications to D2.

I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions. I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of community consulatation deplorable.

Apologies for this being so sudden. This was deliberate as there would have been no way to achieve consensus in the matter. People prefer having choices and postponement options, and are generous with others' time. Allow me to recap the reasons why I think this is a necessary move. 1. We can't serve two masters. Working on two languages at the same time was non-committal and artificially sustained a rift in the community. It also diffused our focus, delayed us to an ever-increasing extent, and sent the wrong message out that we're lacking confidence of what our core thrust is, so we're trying to sort of please everyone. ("Here's our flagship language! If you don't like it, well, we have another one.") 2. The deadline is more than a year away. This is a long time, enough for us to make D2 compelling, and also for interested people to migrate. I much prefer to give a 12-month warning in December than a 6-month warning in June. Most importantly, it _is_ a deadline, which means people (including us) can plan things ahead. 3. Ceasing support does not mean D1 becomes useless on December 31, 2012. There are many companies that use discontinued compilers for their codebase until they find enough reasons to migrate. Thanks, Andrei
Dec 13 2011
parent reply Don <nospam nospam.com> writes:
On 13.12.2011 17:00, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/11 7:52 AM, Don wrote:
 On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
 discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than one
 year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries and
 applications to D2.

I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions. I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of community consulatation deplorable.

Apologies for this being so sudden. This was deliberate as there would have been no way to achieve consensus in the matter. People prefer having choices and postponement options, and are generous with others' time. Allow me to recap the reasons why I think this is a necessary move. 1. We can't serve two masters. Working on two languages at the same time was non-committal and artificially sustained a rift in the community.

The rift was created and sustained by unilateral statements like this one. Abandoning half the community doesn't help.
 It also diffused our focus, delayed us to an ever-increasing extent,

What on earth gives you that idea? The only resources involved are some fraction of Walter's time, which is obviously an important resource, but nobody other than Walter is affected. You're seriously misrepresenting the situation. I spend some time on fixing D1 bugs, but that won't change, see below.
 and
 sent the wrong message out that we're lacking confidence of what our
 core thrust is, so we're trying to sort of please everyone. ("Here's our
 flagship language! If you don't like it, well, we have another one.")

This is a silly and offensive statement. Most languages are in this situation. Look at Python2 vs Python3, Perl6 vs Perl5.
 2. The deadline is more than a year away. This is a long time, enough
 for us to make D2 compelling, and also for interested people to migrate.

No, it's an exceedingly short timeframe. What gives you the idea that nobody is using D1? Have you thought about what would convince them to switch to D2, and what would be required for them to do it? I suspect you don't know much about the D1 community. (Note that only a small fraction of D users have ever used the newsgroup, and it's mostly people with an interest in language design. They are not representative). I can already say with certainty that I will still be using D1 in 2013.
Dec 13 2011
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/13/11 10:12 PM, Don wrote:
 On 13.12.2011 17:00, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/11 7:52 AM, Don wrote:
 On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
 discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than one
 year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries and
 applications to D2.

I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions. I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of community consulatation deplorable.

Apologies for this being so sudden. This was deliberate as there would have been no way to achieve consensus in the matter. People prefer having choices and postponement options, and are generous with others' time. Allow me to recap the reasons why I think this is a necessary move. 1. We can't serve two masters. Working on two languages at the same time was non-committal and artificially sustained a rift in the community.

The rift was created and sustained by unilateral statements like this one. Abandoning half the community doesn't help.

There is no abandonment. Also, where is that 50/50 estimate from? Just curious.
 It also diffused our focus, delayed us to an ever-increasing extent,

What on earth gives you that idea? The only resources involved are some fraction of Walter's time, which is obviously an important resource, but nobody other than Walter is affected.

Walter told me so, and Walter is the single most important bottleneck.
 You're seriously misrepresenting
 the situation.

What is an accurate representation of the situation, and what evidence is there to back that up?
 I spend some time on fixing D1 bugs, but that won't change, see below.

 and
 sent the wrong message out that we're lacking confidence of what our
 core thrust is, so we're trying to sort of please everyone. ("Here's our
 flagship language! If you don't like it, well, we have another one.")

This is a silly and offensive statement. Most languages are in this situation. Look at Python2 vs Python3, Perl6 vs Perl5.

I wonder who would be offended by that.
 2. The deadline is more than a year away. This is a long time, enough
 for us to make D2 compelling, and also for interested people to migrate.

No, it's an exceedingly short timeframe.

Other vendors give similar time scale for much larger migrations.
 What gives you the idea that
 nobody is using D1?

There is not one sentence in my message claiming nobody is using D1. Don, it is you who is misrepresenting the situation, and repeatedly. I understand you find this frustrating, but please, let's have a constructive dialog.
 Have you thought about what would convince them to
 switch to D2, and what would be required for them to do it?

I think the most important aspect for them would be completion of Tango's port to D2. The recent progress in the matter is encouraging. If the D1 community is sizable, resourceful, and interested, I believe that to be within the realm of possibility.
 I suspect you don't know much about the D1 community. (Note that only a
 small fraction of D users have ever used the newsgroup, and it's mostly
 people with an interest in language design. They are not representative).

 I can already say with certainty that I will still be using D1 in 2013.

That's great. The decision does not make it impossible or even particularly difficult for D1 users to continue using D1. Since there were near zero bug reports on D1, they can be assumed to be content with the quality of the compiler. Really I don't see the gist of the complaint. This is not abandonment. Thanks, Andrei
Dec 13 2011
next sibling parent reply Don <nospam nospam.com> writes:
On 14.12.2011 05:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/11 10:12 PM, Don wrote:
 On 13.12.2011 17:00, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/11 7:52 AM, Don wrote:
 On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
 discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than
 one
 year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries
 and
 applications to D2.

I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions. I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of community consulatation deplorable.

Apologies for this being so sudden. This was deliberate as there would have been no way to achieve consensus in the matter. People prefer having choices and postponement options, and are generous with others' time. Allow me to recap the reasons why I think this is a necessary move. 1. We can't serve two masters. Working on two languages at the same time was non-committal and artificially sustained a rift in the community.

The rift was created and sustained by unilateral statements like this one. Abandoning half the community doesn't help.

There is no abandonment. Also, where is that 50/50 estimate from? Just curious.

The D2 community is definitely bigger than the D1 community. But how much more? It's hard to be sure, but the Tango users used to be 75% of the community, based on a few polls that were held, but they never had much representation on the ng. I guess between half and 2/3 are gone now. I don't think the entire D community is as big as it was back then (based on number of public repositories). Additionally, the number of contributors, and level of activity, in Tango, was higher than Phobos has ever had.
 It also diffused our focus, delayed us to an ever-increasing extent,

What on earth gives you that idea? The only resources involved are some fraction of Walter's time, which is obviously an important resource, but nobody other than Walter is affected.

Walter told me so, and Walter is the single most important bottleneck.

So "us" means Walter?
 You're seriously misrepresenting
 the situation.

What is an accurate representation of the situation, and what evidence is there to back that up?

This is an issue of Walter's time, and nothing more. I think the evidence for that is clear -- who else is spending time on D1? Important thing to notice: GDC and LDC also have D1 compilers. Does this decision apply to them?
 I spend some time on fixing D1 bugs, but that won't change, see below.

 and
 sent the wrong message out that we're lacking confidence of what our
 core thrust is, so we're trying to sort of please everyone. ("Here's our
 flagship language! If you don't like it, well, we have another one.")

This is a silly and offensive statement. Most languages are in this situation. Look at Python2 vs Python3, Perl6 vs Perl5.

I wonder who would be offended by that.

Other than me? Well, I think the Python guys would be offended if you said it of them.
 2. The deadline is more than a year away. This is a long time, enough
 for us to make D2 compelling, and also for interested people to migrate.

No, it's an exceedingly short timeframe.

Other vendors give similar time scale for much larger migrations.

Only when the migration is to a mature product.
 What gives you the idea that
 nobody is using D1?

There is not one sentence in my message claiming nobody is using D1.

Ok, I can't make sense of it otherwise.
 Don, it is you who is misrepresenting the situation, and repeatedly. I
 understand you find this frustrating, but please, let's have a
 constructive dialog.

 Have you thought about what would convince them to
 switch to D2, and what would be required for them to do it?

I think the most important aspect for them would be completion of Tango's port to D2. The recent progress in the matter is encouraging. If the D1 community is sizable, resourceful, and interested, I believe that to be within the realm of possibility.

At the present time, do they actually desire to move to D2? If not, why not? And the big one: are they confident that D2 is sufficiently stable?
 I suspect you don't know much about the D1 community. (Note that only a
 small fraction of D users have ever used the newsgroup, and it's mostly
 people with an interest in language design. They are not representative).

 I can already say with certainty that I will still be using D1 in 2013.

That's great. The decision does not make it impossible or even particularly difficult for D1 users to continue using D1. Since there were near zero bug reports on D1,

There are 400 open bugzilla D1 + common D1/D2 compiler bugs in Bugzilla, including nearly all of the heavily voted bugs. D1 is very much more stable than D2 (D2 has 800 open bugs), so there are far fewer bug reports. If you mean, there were no bug reports on the beta, that's not suprising, there are no D1 Phobos changes, which is where regressions mostly show up. they can be assumed to be content with
 the quality of the compiler. Really I don't see the gist of the
 complaint. This is not abandonment.

You, Andrei, are personally making a decision which affects the entire community. I'm actually a bit shocked that you've done this. Especially since there was a big public discussion on the D internals newsgroup (Nov 10) about reducing the pressure of Walter's time. --------- Kenji:
      Today only Walter improvements D1 branch. Almost dmd pulls only
    consider D2 branch. Should we add D1 patch at the same time?

Walter: Merging with D1 hasn't been too difficult; I use a program called "meld" which makes it a snap. ... It usually takes a couple hours to merge a patch, if things go smoothly. Most of that is running the test suite. Some more time is spent updating the changelog and bugzilla. ---- So, didn't sound then as though D1 was a big issue. Yet a month later you announce you've made a private decision about axing D1. Feels exactly like a military coup.
Dec 14 2011
next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 09:30, Don wrote:
 On 14.12.2011 05:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/11 10:12 PM, Don wrote:
 On 13.12.2011 17:00, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/11 7:52 AM, Don wrote:
 On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
 discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than
 one
 year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries
 and
 applications to D2.

I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions. I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of community consulatation deplorable.

Apologies for this being so sudden. This was deliberate as there would have been no way to achieve consensus in the matter. People prefer having choices and postponement options, and are generous with others' time. Allow me to recap the reasons why I think this is a necessary move. 1. We can't serve two masters. Working on two languages at the same time was non-committal and artificially sustained a rift in the community.

The rift was created and sustained by unilateral statements like this one. Abandoning half the community doesn't help.

There is no abandonment. Also, where is that 50/50 estimate from? Just curious.

The D2 community is definitely bigger than the D1 community. But how much more? It's hard to be sure, but the Tango users used to be 75% of the community, based on a few polls that were held, but they never had much representation on the ng. I guess between half and 2/3 are gone now. I don't think the entire D community is as big as it was back then (based on number of public repositories). Additionally, the number of contributors, and level of activity, in Tango, was higher than Phobos has ever had.
 It also diffused our focus, delayed us to an ever-increasing extent,

What on earth gives you that idea? The only resources involved are some fraction of Walter's time, which is obviously an important resource, but nobody other than Walter is affected.

Walter told me so, and Walter is the single most important bottleneck.

So "us" means Walter?
 You're seriously misrepresenting
 the situation.

What is an accurate representation of the situation, and what evidence is there to back that up?

This is an issue of Walter's time, and nothing more. I think the evidence for that is clear -- who else is spending time on D1? Important thing to notice: GDC and LDC also have D1 compilers. Does this decision apply to them?
 I spend some time on fixing D1 bugs, but that won't change, see below.

 and
 sent the wrong message out that we're lacking confidence of what our
 core thrust is, so we're trying to sort of please everyone. ("Here's
 our
 flagship language! If you don't like it, well, we have another one.")

This is a silly and offensive statement. Most languages are in this situation. Look at Python2 vs Python3, Perl6 vs Perl5.

I wonder who would be offended by that.

Other than me? Well, I think the Python guys would be offended if you said it of them.
 2. The deadline is more than a year away. This is a long time, enough
 for us to make D2 compelling, and also for interested people to
 migrate.

No, it's an exceedingly short timeframe.

Other vendors give similar time scale for much larger migrations.

Only when the migration is to a mature product.
 What gives you the idea that
 nobody is using D1?

There is not one sentence in my message claiming nobody is using D1.

Ok, I can't make sense of it otherwise.
 Don, it is you who is misrepresenting the situation, and repeatedly. I
 understand you find this frustrating, but please, let's have a
 constructive dialog.

 Have you thought about what would convince them to
 switch to D2, and what would be required for them to do it?

I think the most important aspect for them would be completion of Tango's port to D2. The recent progress in the matter is encouraging. If the D1 community is sizable, resourceful, and interested, I believe that to be within the realm of possibility.

At the present time, do they actually desire to move to D2? If not, why not? And the big one: are they confident that D2 is sufficiently stable?
 I suspect you don't know much about the D1 community. (Note that only a
 small fraction of D users have ever used the newsgroup, and it's mostly
 people with an interest in language design. They are not
 representative).

 I can already say with certainty that I will still be using D1 in 2013.

That's great. The decision does not make it impossible or even particularly difficult for D1 users to continue using D1. Since there were near zero bug reports on D1,

There are 400 open bugzilla D1 + common D1/D2 compiler bugs in Bugzilla, including nearly all of the heavily voted bugs. D1 is very much more stable than D2 (D2 has 800 open bugs), so there are far fewer bug reports. If you mean, there were no bug reports on the beta, that's not suprising, there are no D1 Phobos changes, which is where regressions mostly show up. they can be assumed to be content with
 the quality of the compiler. Really I don't see the gist of the
 complaint. This is not abandonment.

You, Andrei, are personally making a decision which affects the entire community. I'm actually a bit shocked that you've done this. Especially since there was a big public discussion on the D internals newsgroup (Nov 10) about reducing the pressure of Walter's time. --------- Kenji: > Today only Walter improvements D1 branch. Almost dmd pulls only > consider D2 branch. Should we add D1 patch at the same time? Walter: Merging with D1 hasn't been too difficult; I use a program called "meld" which makes it a snap. ... It usually takes a couple hours to merge a patch, if things go smoothly. Most of that is running the test suite. Some more time is spent updating the changelog and bugzilla. ---- So, didn't sound then as though D1 was a big issue. Yet a month later you announce you've made a private decision about axing D1. Feels exactly like a military coup.

I completely agree with Don. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/14/11 2:30 AM, Don wrote:
 On 14.12.2011 05:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 There is no abandonment. Also, where is that 50/50 estimate from? Just
 curious.

The D2 community is definitely bigger than the D1 community. But how much more?

I presume it's quite a bit larger. But then both are small, and we're interested in the potential and the rate of adoption.
 It's hard to be sure, but the Tango users used to be 75% of the
 community, based on a few polls that were held, but they never had much
 representation on the ng. I guess between half and 2/3 are gone now.

That seems a reasonable assessment. Possibly even more left.
 I don't think the entire D community is as big as it was back then
 (based on number of public repositories).

That is also entirely possible.
 Additionally, the number of contributors, and level of activity, in
 Tango, was higher than Phobos has ever had.

Agreed. But this is all missing the mark - why would we cry over spilled milk. The point is assessing the state of affairs the minute before the announcement. How active was Tango? How active were the Tango forums? Where were other forums of the D1 community? In this day and age, I'd be hard-pressed to think of an active programming language community that has no online presence whatsoever. To add to that, there was no trickle of bug reports or pull requests for D1, although clearly D1 does have its bugs and issues. I haven't followed Tango closely, but if D1 had a large active community, Tango would receive a lot of attention from its users as it's the de facto standard library for D1. Yet the last post (http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/forums/topic/903) dates from March 30. The intervals between changes to the trunk (http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/changeset/5691/) are measured in months. I hope you'll agree that one would be hard-pressed to infer from the evidence there is that there's a large, active, and thriving D1 community.
 It also diffused our focus, delayed us to an ever-increasing extent,

What on earth gives you that idea? The only resources involved are some fraction of Walter's time, which is obviously an important resource, but nobody other than Walter is affected.

Walter told me so, and Walter is the single most important bottleneck.

So "us" means Walter?

A delay originated by Walter delays the entire community. So by "us" I meant the community.
 You're seriously misrepresenting
 the situation.

What is an accurate representation of the situation, and what evidence is there to back that up?

This is an issue of Walter's time, and nothing more.

Walter said that he'd rather not spend that time anymore.
 I think the
 evidence for that is clear -- who else is spending time on D1?

As I mentioned, the larger issue is the message we're sending out. We can't serve two masters, and we need to focus and specialize our brand. Please trust me on this; in only a few short months I'm confident you will agree this will have been a good move.
 Important thing to notice: GDC and LDC also have D1 compilers. Does this
 decision apply to them?

No.
 I spend some time on fixing D1 bugs, but that won't change, see below.

 and
 sent the wrong message out that we're lacking confidence of what our
 core thrust is, so we're trying to sort of please everyone. ("Here's
 our
 flagship language! If you don't like it, well, we have another one.")

This is a silly and offensive statement. Most languages are in this situation. Look at Python2 vs Python3, Perl6 vs Perl5.

I wonder who would be offended by that.

Other than me? Well, I think the Python guys would be offended if you said it of them.
 2. The deadline is more than a year away. This is a long time, enough
 for us to make D2 compelling, and also for interested people to
 migrate.

No, it's an exceedingly short timeframe.

Other vendors give similar time scale for much larger migrations.

Only when the migration is to a mature product.

Agreed. All things considered, one year seems to me a resonable time frame. It's reasonable of you to disagree. Time will tell whom of us was right.
 What gives you the idea that
 nobody is using D1?

There is not one sentence in my message claiming nobody is using D1.

Ok, I can't make sense of it otherwise.
 Don, it is you who is misrepresenting the situation, and repeatedly. I
 understand you find this frustrating, but please, let's have a
 constructive dialog.

 Have you thought about what would convince them to
 switch to D2, and what would be required for them to do it?

I think the most important aspect for them would be completion of Tango's port to D2. The recent progress in the matter is encouraging. If the D1 community is sizable, resourceful, and interested, I believe that to be within the realm of possibility.

At the present time, do they actually desire to move to D2? If not, why not? And the big one: are they confident that D2 is sufficiently stable?

I don't know what they think. Based on the observations I outlined above, I can hypothesize (a) the interest to move to D2 is scant; (b) the main reason is Tango is not working with D2; and (c) I don't know and I don't think that's the gating factor (Tango is). I'll venture the opinion that the D1-like subset of D2 is as stable than D1.
 I suspect you don't know much about the D1 community. (Note that only a
 small fraction of D users have ever used the newsgroup, and it's mostly
 people with an interest in language design. They are not
 representative).

 I can already say with certainty that I will still be using D1 in 2013.

That's great. The decision does not make it impossible or even particularly difficult for D1 users to continue using D1. Since there were near zero bug reports on D1,

There are 400 open bugzilla D1 + common D1/D2 compiler bugs in Bugzilla, including nearly all of the heavily voted bugs. D1 is very much more stable than D2 (D2 has 800 open bugs), so there are far fewer bug reports.

More bug reports does not imply less stability because number of users also affects the numbers. Also, there is heavy community activity to fix D2 bugs but not D1 bugs. It's reasonable to assume there aren't many people waiting for some D1 bug to be fixed. They either found a workaround or left the language.
 If you mean, there were no bug reports on the beta, that's not
 suprising, there are no D1 Phobos changes, which is where regressions
 mostly show up.

I wasn't referring to this beta as much as the overall pattern of reporting D1 bugs, discussing them, and contributing fixes to them.
 they can be assumed to be content with
 the quality of the compiler. Really I don't see the gist of the
 complaint. This is not abandonment.

You, Andrei, are personally making a decision which affects the entire community. I'm actually a bit shocked that you've done this.

Walter and I made this decision together. This is not a decision of the community because, again, people like to postpone, keep options open, and be generous with others' time. To give a counter-example, I asked for community input on the new website although I was advised against it. Indeed I've been racked over coals, but the ultimate result is a much better website than it would have otherwise been. If I knew of your response, we would have made sure to pass it by you, and I apologize we didn't. (I assume the entire core team would be on board with the decision, and aside from you, my perception is that it is.) But if you have already enumerated the arguments you would have made prior to making the decision, I think you'd agree they wouldn't have been compelling.
 Especially since there was a big public discussion on the D internals
 newsgroup (Nov 10) about reducing the pressure of Walter's time.
 ---------
 Kenji:
  > Today only Walter improvements D1 branch. Almost dmd pulls only
  > consider D2 branch. Should we add D1 patch at the same time?

 Walter:
 Merging with D1 hasn't been too difficult; I use a program called "meld"
 which makes it a snap.
 ....

 It usually takes a couple hours to merge a patch, if things go smoothly.
 Most of that is running the test suite. Some more time is spent updating
 the changelog and bugzilla.
 ----
 So, didn't sound then as though D1 was a big issue. Yet a month later
 you announce you've made a private decision about axing D1.
 Feels exactly like a military coup.

Well I am as surprised about your surprise as you are about the fact itself. About this, I repeat that Walter's time is one component, but not the major one. We can assume it costs him zero time; still the decision to announce ceasing D1 support in one year is a good one. Please trust me on this one, and may D1's blood be on me if I made a mistake. Andrei
Dec 14 2011
next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 10:46, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/14/11 2:30 AM, Don wrote:
 On 14.12.2011 05:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 There is no abandonment. Also, where is that 50/50 estimate from? Just
 curious.

The D2 community is definitely bigger than the D1 community. But how much more?

I presume it's quite a bit larger. But then both are small, and we're interested in the potential and the rate of adoption.
 It's hard to be sure, but the Tango users used to be 75% of the
 community, based on a few polls that were held, but they never had much
 representation on the ng. I guess between half and 2/3 are gone now.

That seems a reasonable assessment. Possibly even more left.
 I don't think the entire D community is as big as it was back then
 (based on number of public repositories).

That is also entirely possible.
 Additionally, the number of contributors, and level of activity, in
 Tango, was higher than Phobos has ever had.

Agreed. But this is all missing the mark - why would we cry over spilled milk. The point is assessing the state of affairs the minute before the announcement. How active was Tango? How active were the Tango forums? Where were other forums of the D1 community? In this day and age, I'd be hard-pressed to think of an active programming language community that has no online presence whatsoever. To add to that, there was no trickle of bug reports or pull requests for D1, although clearly D1 does have its bugs and issues. I haven't followed Tango closely, but if D1 had a large active community, Tango would receive a lot of attention from its users as it's the de facto standard library for D1. Yet the last post (http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/forums/topic/903) dates from March 30. The intervals between changes to the trunk (http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/changeset/5691/) are measured in months.

The forum has never been very active. Lately there hasn't been that much activity as it used to be but the if you look at the timeline, the last event was 7 days ago. http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/timeline -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling parent Robert Clipsham <robert octarineparrot.com> writes:
On 14/12/2011 09:46, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/14/11 2:30 AM, Don wrote:
 On 14.12.2011 05:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 There is no abandonment. Also, where is that 50/50 estimate from? Just
 curious.

The D2 community is definitely bigger than the D1 community. But how much more?

I presume it's quite a bit larger. But then both are small, and we're interested in the potential and the rate of adoption.
 It's hard to be sure, but the Tango users used to be 75% of the
 community, based on a few polls that were held, but they never had much
 representation on the ng. I guess between half and 2/3 are gone now.

That seems a reasonable assessment. Possibly even more left.
 I don't think the entire D community is as big as it was back then
 (based on number of public repositories).

That is also entirely possible.
 Additionally, the number of contributors, and level of activity, in
 Tango, was higher than Phobos has ever had.

Agreed. But this is all missing the mark - why would we cry over spilled milk. The point is assessing the state of affairs the minute before the announcement. How active was Tango? How active were the Tango forums? Where were other forums of the D1 community? In this day and age, I'd be hard-pressed to think of an active programming language community that has no online presence whatsoever. To add to that, there was no trickle of bug reports or pull requests for D1, although clearly D1 does have its bugs and issues. I haven't followed Tango closely, but if D1 had a large active community, Tango would receive a lot of attention from its users as it's the de facto standard library for D1. Yet the last post (http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/forums/topic/903) dates from March 30. The intervals between changes to the trunk (http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/changeset/5691/) are measured in months. I hope you'll agree that one would be hard-pressed to infer from the evidence there is that there's a large, active, and thriving D1 community.

Many of the active contributors to Tango and other D1 projects (millions of lines of code in total) have completely abandoned D now, moving back to C, C++, Java, and other languages. Why? See the many posts at: http://h3.gd/devlog/ And also: http://www.jfbillingsley.com/blog/?p=53 These issues are why they left D. Notice how they're not just D1 problems, for the most part, they still exist with D2 (progress has been made with some of the issues). Some issues I've pulled out (by no means all of them, see the above posts for more info): * OPTLINK/OMF/The horrific windows situation * The GC * .di files * forward references/cyclic imports * Long standing bugs with patches, lots of votes and no fix applied * Decisions being made with NO community input. Cough. Things have been changing rapidly since the move to github, and many things that drove them away are being worked on, but still... They didn't migrate to D2 because it wasn't remotely stable, and D1 still wasn't (isn't!) finished. D2 still isn't stable/complete, and has inherited many issues from pre-D1. I really hope it is before you kill off D1. -- Robert http://octarineparrot.com/
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/14/2011 12:30 AM, Don wrote:
 So, didn't sound then as though D1 was a big issue. Yet a month later you
 announce you've made a private decision about axing D1.
 Feels exactly like a military coup.

Well, it wasn't one. The thing is, as I posted in this thread recently, there's little to no evidence of D1 interest - nobody responded to the beta, no posts about D1, no new bug reports about D1, no response to the new D1 releases (yes, Jacob just did a reply to it), etc. I feel like I was supporting D1 in a vacuum. I've been thinking about ending support for it for some time because of that. I don't know where the D1 community is, or even if it exists anymore.
Dec 14 2011
next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 10:50, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 12:30 AM, Don wrote:
 So, didn't sound then as though D1 was a big issue. Yet a month later you
 announce you've made a private decision about axing D1.
 Feels exactly like a military coup.

Well, it wasn't one. The thing is, as I posted in this thread recently, there's little to no evidence of D1 interest - nobody responded to the beta, no posts about D1, no new bug reports about D1, no response to the new D1 releases (yes, Jacob just did a reply to it), etc. I feel like I was supporting D1 in a vacuum. I've been thinking about ending support for it for some time because of that. I don't know where the D1 community is, or even if it exists anymore.

There are constantly around 25 people in the Tango channel on IRC. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/14/2011 10:28 AM, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:
 I don't know where the D1 community is, or even if it exists anymore.

I'm here!

Thanks for speaking up.
 Anyways couldn't you just do releases less often or only when there is
something
 to release? Like every other D2 release to lessen the burden?

Can I turn that around and ask what issues there are with migrating your code base to D2?
Dec 14 2011
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/14/2011 4:32 PM, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:
 In short it can be answered with the questions "Can you
 guarantee it work?"

A guarantee would be something like you paid $x for it and I would refund your $x if you weren't completely satisfied (which I often do for Digital Mars C++ and other paid products). But I don't see how I could offer a guarantee on a free product where I have no control over your satisfaction.
 and "Can I justify the amount of work I have
 to put in for the gain?",

That's something only you can answer.
 the thing is I have a had a lot of
 problems with D1 toolchain, I have fixed or worked around these
 issues and I'm wondering if I have to work around those or other
 again. I am currently supporting 3 platforms (Mac, Linux &
 Windows), so that factors in as well (me having fixed some
 issues on Mac for D1).

I can ask: 1. Are these issues all reported in Bugzilla? 2. Are your fixes also supplied to Bugzilla? With (1), I then will know about the issues, and myself or one of the many contributors can supply a fix. With (2), I can incorporate your fixes into the official toolchain so it will never darken anyone else's doorstep again.
 My current code base is 40Kloc's where about 8Kloc of those
 are library bindings, on top of that it also includes a couple
 of C projects sources (expat, lua and some other misc
 libraries). So I would have to convert all that code to D2 and
 also fix any issues that might arise from that conversion.
 That said I think that it would mostly running the code
 through dmd2 and just fix any cases where it complains. But it
 probably wouldn't be a trivial amount of work.

I don't know how much work that would be. I will say that 40Kloc is not a huge base of code, as these things go. I don't think you'll have to do anything with the C code or other non-D sources.
 I don't use Phobos that much in my code so I wont have to
 change much code with that regards, then again I don't see much
 value of the new Phobos since there isn't much new there for me.
 In fact I sort of have a philosophical disagreement with the
 boost/templet-ification of it and the language in general.

That's fair, but it's also something that could be a separate, wide-ranging discussion.
 Also in the beginning when I was using D1 and it moved much
 more faster I would often find myself having to work around
 or change various parts of the program due to new bugs or
 features. I think D2 is much better in the bug department then
 D1 was so that isn't much of a issue, but its still not really
 stable and its more work for me.

I understand the pain that breaking changes cause, and have pushed hard to stop a few that I felt the minor gains on did not justify the disruption.
 That said there are a couple of features that if they where
 implemented in D2 would encourage me to switch.

 One of the biggest problem right now is that I can't build
 my project on Windows and is forced to cross compile it with GDC
 from Linux. This stems from me having a mixed C & D project and
 not getting the various compilers to get along (Both DMD & DMC
 and GDC & GCC, would either not compile or produce broken
 binaries). So making DMD work with the mingw toolchain on
 Windows would be really appreciated (COFF support right?).

I cannot help with this without knowing what the specific problems are.
 Improvements to the GC, I'm currently having to thread lightly
 around various issues with the GC, again its works currently so
 I don't want to work around it again. Adopting a two step
 approach employed by GObject would might help.
 http://developer.gnome.org/gobject/stable/gobject-memory.html


 All said and done, knowing what I know today I would probably
 not do the project in D1, but I have thrown my dice and I'm
 "stuck" (not used strongly here, I still like a lot of D), but
 I'm not sure I would want to go through all that pain again
 with D2. As Andrie have said D has a tendency to come unglued
 when you start to do advanced thing, and the language dies a
 death of a thousand paper-cuts (and some knife stabs).

You don't have to write advanced code using D2. You can still write "C style" code with it, and even "D1 style" code in it.
 I do appreciate the work you have put into D over the years,
 I just don't want to have meaningless battles with language/-
 compiler bugs. I hope this message is useful for you.

It is, but I really do need more detail as outlined above.
Dec 14 2011
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/14/2011 8:55 PM, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:
 So the way I see it now, is there are some minor risks involved
 and a upfront investment of time to convert the code, for no
 real gain.

The gain would be in taking advantage of the D2 capabilities for the future work on your code.
 The Mac platform issues I have: filed bugs for or reported me
 too's, generated pull requests, which have been pulled. So they are all
resolved.

Good.
 I think that my biggest fear is running into new bugs that I will have to waste
 a day or so of productivity on.

This is true of any product - I recently spent some time tracking down a gcc codegen bug on the mac.
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling parent reply Robert Clipsham <robert octarineparrot.com> writes:
On 15/12/2011 00:32, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:
 On Wednesday, 14 December 2011 at 18:55:23 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 10:28 AM, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:
 I don't know where the D1 community is, or even if it exists anymore.

I'm here!

Thanks for speaking up.

np.
 Anyways couldn't you just do releases less often or only when there
 is something to release? Like every other D2 release to
 lessen the burden?

Can I turn that around and ask what issues there are with migrating your code base to D2?

In short it can be answered with the questions "Can you guarantee it work?" and "Can I justify the amount of work I have to put in for the gain?", the thing is I have a had a lot of problems with D1 toolchain, I have fixed or worked around these issues and I'm wondering if I have to work around those or other again. I am currently supporting 3 platforms (Mac, Linux & Windows), so that factors in as well (me having fixed some issues on Mac for D1). My current code base is 40Kloc's where about 8Kloc of those are library bindings, on top of that it also includes a couple of C projects sources (expat, lua and some other misc libraries). So I would have to convert all that code to D2 and also fix any issues that might arise from that conversion. That said I think that it would mostly running the code through dmd2 and just fix any cases where it complains. But it probably wouldn't be a trivial amount of work.

Having migrated a far smaller codebase from D1/Tango to D2/Phobos, here are some tips/things I encountered: * Most of the effort in porting was dealing with the lack of features in phobos, this sounds like it wouldn't be an issue for you though since you're using D1/Phobos. * Make sure all your code is thoroughly unittested - my code had a reasonable amount of unittests, but I was still discovering subtle bugs months later that were caused by the transition * Do it all in one go, and DO NOT GET DISTRACTED. The moment you start trying to clean up code as well as finish porting it you introduce lots of issues * Some things will inevitably have to change to get them working... Don't make the changes while you're porting, just drop in a /* TODO: <This needs to work like X, not Y> */ comment and come back to it later. Get it compiling first, then go through and sort things out later. Hope this helps, should you decide to transition :) -- Robert http://octarineparrot.com/
Dec 15 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/15/2011 9:49 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:
 * Do it all in one go, and DO NOT GET DISTRACTED. The moment you start trying
to
 clean up code as well as finish porting it you introduce lots of issues

I've done many projects that translated code from one language to another, some were pretty large. The One Big Most Important Rule is: !!!! DO NOT REFACTOR/ENHANCE/IMPROVE/FIX/CLEANUP THE CODE WHILE TRANSLATING !!!! I know how tempting it is. It's incredibly tempting. It's a huge mistake. The method that works is to turn your brain off, and simply translate. Strive for a 1:1 correspondence between the original code and the translated code. Do not divert from this until after your translation is done, and it behaves identically to the original. The reason is that the translated version inevitably will not behave like the original. A lot of things will be broken. If you did a 1:1 translation, you can instrument both, find where the translation diverges, and fix it in a fairly quick and straightforward manner. If you changed the way it is organized or works, then you have no idea if it is a translation error or your changes broke it, and you have a much, much harder time fixing it.
Dec 15 2011
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-15 20:41, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/15/2011 9:49 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:
 * Do it all in one go, and DO NOT GET DISTRACTED. The moment you start
 trying to
 clean up code as well as finish porting it you introduce lots of issues

I've done many projects that translated code from one language to another, some were pretty large. The One Big Most Important Rule is: !!!! DO NOT REFACTOR/ENHANCE/IMPROVE/FIX/CLEANUP THE CODE WHILE TRANSLATING !!!! I know how tempting it is. It's incredibly tempting. It's a huge mistake. The method that works is to turn your brain off, and simply translate. Strive for a 1:1 correspondence between the original code and the translated code. Do not divert from this until after your translation is done, and it behaves identically to the original. The reason is that the translated version inevitably will not behave like the original. A lot of things will be broken. If you did a 1:1 translation, you can instrument both, find where the translation diverges, and fix it in a fairly quick and straightforward manner. If you changed the way it is organized or works, then you have no idea if it is a translation error or your changes broke it, and you have a much, much harder time fixing it.

Having ported the Mac OS X version of SWT from Java to D (and a couple of other code bases) I completely agree with everything above. You just have to turn your mind off and work like a machine when porting. It's extremely tempting do some small fixes here and there but restrain yourself, you'll thank yourself in the end. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 15 2011
prev sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Don" <nospam nospam.com> wrote in message 
news:jc9mqg$lp$1 digitalmars.com...
 The D2 community is definitely bigger than the D1 community. But how much 
 more?

 It's hard to be sure, but the Tango users used to be 75% of the community, 
 based on a few polls that were held, but they never had much 
 representation on the ng. I guess between half and 2/3 are gone now.
 I don't think the entire D community is as big as it was back then (based 
 on number of public repositories).
 Additionally, the number of contributors, and level of activity, in Tango, 
 was higher than Phobos has ever had.

 I suspect you don't know much about the D1 community. (Note that only a
 small fraction of D users have ever used the newsgroup, and it's mostly
 people with an interest in language design. They are not 
 representative).



A year and a half ago (May 2010), I put up a poll checking D1 and D2 usage (It also had "D1, but intend to move to D2"). I knew Tango people avoided this NG, so I posted it to both this NG *and* to the Tango forums (BTW, if the Tango forums have low activity, isn't that indicative of low interest in and usage of D1? If not, then where is this significant D1 community?). While I admit I don't recall the exact numbers, the "Sticking with D1" group was indeed very, very small. And that was way back a year and a half ago. *Plus*, that was even before TDPL was released (at least according to Amazon). So even as small as the proportion of D1 users was way back then, there's every reason to beleave that it's now even much smaller.
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 05:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 That's great. The decision does not make it impossible or even
 particularly difficult for D1 users to continue using D1. Since there
 were near zero bug reports on D1, they can be assumed to be content with
 the quality of the compiler. Really I don't see the gist of the
 complaint. This is not abandonment.

There are plenty of existing D1 bugs. And recently I've seen mostly newer bugs fixed instead of older ones. They at least seem to get fixed faster. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Don" <nospam nospam.com> wrote in message 
news:jc97mn$257t$1 digitalmars.com...
 This is a silly and offensive statement. Most languages are in this 
 situation. Look at Python2 vs Python3, Perl6 vs Perl5.

Interpreted languages are a very different matter (especially so for web development). They're not just compilers, they're effectively platforms. Python2 is needed just to *run* Python2 software. The same is not true for compiled languages: D1 is only needed to compile D1 software, not to run it. Languages like Perl and Python have much more need to maintain older branches.
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-13 14:52, Don wrote:
 On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
 discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than one
 year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries and
 applications to D2.

I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions. I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of community consulatation deplorable.

Apparently not, when Andrei really wants something he just decides without consulting the community. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2011
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-13 17:53, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 17:22:48 Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-13 14:52, Don wrote:
 On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
 discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than
 one
 year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries
 and
 applications to D2.

I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions. I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of community consulatation deplorable.

Apparently not, when Andrei really wants something he just decides without consulting the community.

Well, he _did_ say that he and Walter discussed it, so it's not like Andrei is deciding this on his own. No, it was not a community decision, but our resident BDFL (Benevolent Dictator for Life) decided it, and he's the one in charge of the compiler. Maybe they should have discussed it with us some first, but I'm not sure how much difference that would have ultimately made. Most of the D2 people would have been completely fine with it, if not welcomed it, whereas those who use only D1 would not only have been against it, but they probably wouldn't have been on this list to discuss it in the first place. It's only the people who use both which would have been around to complain about it.

Exactly, and why do you think no D1 users are on this list?
 Did any D1 user think that it was anything other than a matter of time before
 Walter stopped supporting D1? Sure, it might have been more than a year away,
 but it had to be coming eventually. The main question has been how long it
 would be until D2 is stable enough that there's essentially no reason to
 choose D1 over D2 except personal preference. It's getting close, and with
 this announcement, there's a whole year before D1 won't be officially supported
 anymore. There's a good chance that there's enough time for the remaining
 kinks which would make D1 better to choose than D2 to be ironed out. And if
 someone still wants to use D1 beyond that, they're welcome to. They just won't
 get any further fixes or releases from Water.

If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1 as long as there are users. D2 is not stable enough, D1 still has problems that D2 has as well. I don't agree, D2 has in general been rushed too much and now there's a rush again.
 I don't know if Andrei and Walter went about this the right way or not, but it
 was coming eventually. And for that matter, when I first read Andrei's post, I
 thought that he meant the end of _this_ year, which would have been far worse
 for D1 users than _next_ year like he actually meant.

 On the bright side for those who prefer D1 and Tango, this announcement comes
 after announcements about major work being done to port Tango to D2, since
 it's not only going to become easier to port D1 to D2, but you'll be able to
 use Tango in D2 if you want to (and without having to forgoe all of Phobos in
 the process, since they'll now work alongside each other).

 - Jonathan M Davis

Yeah, I'm not having so much against the language (D2) itself, it's more Phobos I'm against. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2011
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/13/2011 9:47 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1 as long as
 there are users.

Yes, I did say that. For some time now, I've been releasing D1 betas and have not received any response to them. I haven't noticed new bug reports for D1. I haven't seen posts here about D1. I announced the D1 1.072 release a few days ago, and there wasn't a single comment on it.
Dec 13 2011
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/13/2011 11:32 AM, Jesse Phillips wrote:
 Doesn't this just mean happy users? Which actually is still in support
 of the choice.

My experience is that no feedback == no users.
Dec 13 2011
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-13 19:55, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/13/2011 9:47 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1
 as long as
 there are users.

Yes, I did say that. For some time now, I've been releasing D1 betas and have not received any response to them. I haven't noticed new bug reports for D1. I haven't seen posts here about D1. I announced the D1 1.072 release a few days ago, and there wasn't a single comment on it.

Yeah, I noticed that. I'm still using D1. I usually don't have time to try all beta versions or releases for that matter. Your making solid improvements in every release and I'm grateful for that. I apologize if I haven't shown any gratitude. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2011
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/13/2011 12:52 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-13 19:55, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/13/2011 9:47 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1
 as long as
 there are users.

Yes, I did say that. For some time now, I've been releasing D1 betas and have not received any response to them. I haven't noticed new bug reports for D1. I haven't seen posts here about D1. I announced the D1 1.072 release a few days ago, and there wasn't a single comment on it.

Yeah, I noticed that. I'm still using D1. I usually don't have time to try all beta versions or releases for that matter. Your making solid improvements in every release and I'm grateful for that. I apologize if I haven't shown any gratitude.

It's not really about gratitude, but just letting me know that there's a point to doing those releases.
Dec 13 2011
next sibling parent reply Bane <branimir.milosavljevic gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright Wrote:

 On 12/13/2011 12:52 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-13 19:55, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/13/2011 9:47 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1
 as long as
 there are users.

Yes, I did say that. For some time now, I've been releasing D1 betas and have not received any response to them. I haven't noticed new bug reports for D1. I haven't seen posts here about D1. I announced the D1 1.072 release a few days ago, and there wasn't a single comment on it.

Yeah, I noticed that. I'm still using D1. I usually don't have time to try all beta versions or releases for that matter. Your making solid improvements in every release and I'm grateful for that. I apologize if I haven't shown any gratitude.

It's not really about gratitude, but just letting me know that there's a point to doing those releases.

<broken_record> <suggestion> Forum, registered users, pool/email pool = feedback :) </suggestion> </broken_record>
Dec 13 2011
parent reply Hans Uhlig <hans.uhlig teamaol.com> writes:
On 12/13/2011 1:59 PM, Bane wrote:
 Walter Bright Wrote:

 On 12/13/2011 12:52 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-13 19:55, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/13/2011 9:47 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1
 as long as
 there are users.

Yes, I did say that. For some time now, I've been releasing D1 betas and have not received any response to them. I haven't noticed new bug reports for D1. I haven't seen posts here about D1. I announced the D1 1.072 release a few days ago, and there wasn't a single comment on it.

Yeah, I noticed that. I'm still using D1. I usually don't have time to try all beta versions or releases for that matter. Your making solid improvements in every release and I'm grateful for that. I apologize if I haven't shown any gratitude.

It's not really about gratitude, but just letting me know that there's a point to doing those releases.

<broken_record> <suggestion> Forum, registered users, pool/email pool = feedback :) </suggestion> </broken_record>

Forum/Registered Users, Unless you are regularly cleaning out inactives this number means nothing about a current userbase. pool/email pool? Are people emailing that I havent heard of. I am on a quite a few mailing lists I cant remove myself from due to lost passwords, or just a lack of caring. Alot of times I just feed them to my spam filter and they stop showing up anymore. I am still a registered user though. This number means nothing.
Dec 15 2011
parent reply Bane <branimir.milosavljevic gmail.com> writes:
 Forum/Registered Users, Unless you are regularly cleaning out inactives 
 this number means nothing about a current userbase.

Purpose is not evaluating size of community but to be able to keep in touch with it.
 
 pool/email pool? Are people emailing that I havent heard of. I am on a 
 quite a few mailing lists I cant remove myself from due to lost 
 passwords, or just a lack of caring.

Any decent forum has unsubscribe link in each email it sends. Password is not required.
 Alot of times I just feed them to 
 my spam filter and they stop showing up anymore. I am still a registered 
 user though. This number means nothing.

Interesting. Answering on email pool would be too much effort. Writing comment on newsgroup isn't. Anyways, D "community" can't really speak its mind here. Here it is 5-10 regular users that are persistent enough to dig trough loads of mixed information, some important, most of it not, on this NG. Most users have no time to check this place every other day so they can say 'please, don't discontinue D1, I am using it' or anything like that when important matter arises. Sending question to users is more correct way to obtain opinions than to wait people to stumble on this thread here. It won't happen for most D users. Ever.
Dec 15 2011
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/15/11 3:50 PM, Bane wrote:
 Anyways, D "community" can't really speak its mind here. Here it is
 5-10 regular users that are persistent enough to dig trough loads of
 mixed information, some important, most of it not, on this NG. Most
 users have no time to check this place every other day so they can
 say 'please, don't discontinue D1, I am using it' or anything like
 that when important matter arises.

 Sending question to users is more correct way to obtain opinions than
 to wait people to stumble on this thread here. It won't happen for
 most D users. Ever.

This is the case with all language communities I've interacted with (C++, Perl, TeX). For all its hoards of users, C++ has a small but extremely influential community hanging out on two Usenet newsgroups: comp.lang.c++.moderated and comp.std.c++. Needless to say, both are free and open for anyone to join. But these groups are the closest it gets to pure meritocracy - people could earn huge amounts of clout simply by making good quality posts. In fact my first ever invited conference talk was solely on account of my newsgroup contributions. The traffic on either of these groups is comparable to that on the D newsgroups. There are few official "well, let's ask the community" polls but by and large the trends reflected by these groups are fairly influential. I'm not saying that's good or bad, I'm just saying it is, and also that D's community dynamics is no different in that regard from at least a few others. Regarding this particular announcement, there's no need to dig for it. I sent it not only to this group, but also to D_programming's 805 Twitter followers, my 1215 Twitter followers, my 3661 Facebook subscribers, reddit, and by extension to D's homepage and my own homepage. It is reasonable to expect that people with an interest in D have had all chances to see it and sufficient channels to chime in. True, the announcement was a done deal and not a question. I very strongly think it didn't need to be a question, for reasons I expanded upon in other posts in this thread. Thanks, Andrei
Dec 15 2011
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-13 22:24, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/13/2011 12:52 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-13 19:55, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/13/2011 9:47 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1
 as long as
 there are users.

Yes, I did say that. For some time now, I've been releasing D1 betas and have not received any response to them. I haven't noticed new bug reports for D1. I haven't seen posts here about D1. I announced the D1 1.072 release a few days ago, and there wasn't a single comment on it.

Yeah, I noticed that. I'm still using D1. I usually don't have time to try all beta versions or releases for that matter. Your making solid improvements in every release and I'm grateful for that. I apologize if I haven't shown any gratitude.

It's not really about gratitude, but just letting me know that there's a point to doing those releases.

Then let me say: "I still use D1 for all my projects". -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/13/2011 11:29 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 Then let me say: "I still use D1 for all my projects".

I hear you. What can we do to make this work for you?
Dec 13 2011
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 08:56, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/13/2011 11:29 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 Then let me say: "I still use D1 for all my projects".

I hear you. What can we do to make this work for you?

I think it's too soon to discontinue the support for D1. I would hope that we could continue like this, having D1 in maintenance mode, for a while longer. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/14/11 2:55 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-14 08:56, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/13/2011 11:29 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 Then let me say: "I still use D1 for all my projects".

I hear you. What can we do to make this work for you?

I think it's too soon to discontinue the support for D1. I would hope that we could continue like this, having D1 in maintenance mode, for a while longer.

How long? Andrei
Dec 14 2011
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 10:48, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/14/11 2:55 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-14 08:56, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/13/2011 11:29 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 Then let me say: "I still use D1 for all my projects".

I hear you. What can we do to make this work for you?

I think it's too soon to discontinue the support for D1. I would hope that we could continue like this, having D1 in maintenance mode, for a while longer.

How long? Andrei

I don't know, it's more about in what state D2 and Phobos is and what changes D1 will get before the support ends. I'm thinking mostly of dynamic libraries. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/14/2011 2:24 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I don't know, it's more about in what state D2 and Phobos is and what changes
D1
 will get before the support ends. I'm thinking mostly of dynamic libraries.

It's likely D1 and D2 will get dynamic libraries at the same time, because it's mostly a backend issue.
Dec 14 2011
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 11:29, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 2:24 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I don't know, it's more about in what state D2 and Phobos is and what
 changes D1
 will get before the support ends. I'm thinking mostly of dynamic
 libraries.

It's likely D1 and D2 will get dynamic libraries at the same time, because it's mostly a backend issue.

I thought it was mostly a runtime issue. I managed to implement it for Tango without any changes to the compiler. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/14/2011 2:49 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-14 11:29, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 2:24 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I don't know, it's more about in what state D2 and Phobos is and what
 changes D1
 will get before the support ends. I'm thinking mostly of dynamic
 libraries.

It's likely D1 and D2 will get dynamic libraries at the same time, because it's mostly a backend issue.

I thought it was mostly a runtime issue. I managed to implement it for Tango without any changes to the compiler.

It couldn't be, because there was a serious omission in the -fPIC code generation fixed in 2.057.
Dec 14 2011
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 19:08, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 2:49 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-14 11:29, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 2:24 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I don't know, it's more about in what state D2 and Phobos is and what
 changes D1
 will get before the support ends. I'm thinking mostly of dynamic
 libraries.

It's likely D1 and D2 will get dynamic libraries at the same time, because it's mostly a backend issue.

I thought it was mostly a runtime issue. I managed to implement it for Tango without any changes to the compiler.

It couldn't be, because there was a serious omission in the -fPIC code generation fixed in 2.057.

Yeah, sorry, I'm mostly thinking of Mac OS X where PIC is the default. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 08:35, Gour wrote:
 Compiler is free, everyone can contribute if they like...it's (almost)
 like in many other open-source projects...

The few times I've contributed to the compiler I've sent a patch or a pull request and the end result is that nothing happens. If I'm lucky I get a few comments, I answer them and then nothing. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/14/2011 12:45 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 The few times I've contributed to the compiler I've sent a patch or a pull
 request and the end result is that nothing happens. If I'm lucky I get a few
 comments, I answer them and then nothing.

There's currently one open dmd pull request from you. Any others you've done have been incorporated. There are currently 68 open dmd pull requests and 490 closed/incorporated ones.
Dec 14 2011
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 10:56, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 12:45 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 The few times I've contributed to the compiler I've sent a patch or a
 pull
 request and the end result is that nothing happens. If I'm lucky I get
 a few
 comments, I answer them and then nothing.

There's currently one open dmd pull request from you. Any others you've done have been incorporated.

Yeah and what happened to that. I got a few comments about the tests failing, but they ended up being a misunderstanding. The same thing happened recently with my attempt of fixing dynamic libraries. It always feel like I'm ending with a question I never get an answer to.
 There are currently 68 open dmd pull requests and 490
 closed/incorporated ones.

I added patches to a few bugzilla issues as well. But they are long outdated by now (the patches that is). -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/14/2011 2:36 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 Yeah and what happened to that. I got a few comments about the tests failing,
 but they ended up being a misunderstanding.

I need to take care of that.
 The same thing happened recently with my attempt of fixing dynamic libraries.
It
 always feel like I'm ending with a question I never get an answer to.

I don't know the answers for doing dynamic libraries, which is why they aren't done.
 I added patches to a few bugzilla issues as well. But they are long outdated by
 now (the patches that is).

I'd appreciate if they were submitted as pull requests.
Dec 14 2011
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 11:49, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 2:36 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 Yeah and what happened to that. I got a few comments about the tests
 failing,
 but they ended up being a misunderstanding.

I need to take care of that.

Thanks.
 The same thing happened recently with my attempt of fixing dynamic
 libraries. It
 always feel like I'm ending with a question I never get an answer to.

I don't know the answers for doing dynamic libraries, which is why they aren't done.

I'm not suggesting that you would know everything but at least that we could agree what we want to do about TLS and dynamic libraries on Mac OS X. 1. Should we stick with the TLS implementation we have and wait for 10.8 1.A. Does this mean 10.6 will not be supported in the future 1.B. Will we be able to solve the TLS issues with dynamic libraries with the current implementation 2. Should we try to emulate the 10.7 implementation our self to support 10.6 as well and at the same time be forward compatible I would hope that these are question we could try to figure out and agree upon.
 I added patches to a few bugzilla issues as well. But they are long
 outdated by
 now (the patches that is).

I'd appreciate if they were submitted as pull requests.

Yes, they were added a long time ago, before the move to github. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/14/2011 3:06 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I added patches to a few bugzilla issues as well. But they are long
 outdated by
 now (the patches that is).

I'd appreciate if they were submitted as pull requests.

Yes, they were added a long time ago, before the move to github.

I understand that, but can you please do one of these: 1. give me a list of bugzilla numbers 2. resubmit them as git pull requests (the advantage here is that the "audit trail" giving you credit will be intact)
Dec 14 2011
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 19:11, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 3:06 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I added patches to a few bugzilla issues as well. But they are long
 outdated by
 now (the patches that is).

I'd appreciate if they were submitted as pull requests.

Yes, they were added a long time ago, before the move to github.

I understand that, but can you please do one of these: 1. give me a list of bugzilla numbers 2. resubmit them as git pull requests (the advantage here is that the "audit trail" giving you credit will be intact)

I'll do that when I find the time. Thanks. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/14/2011 3:06 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I'm not suggesting that you would know everything but at least that we could
 agree what we want to do about TLS and dynamic libraries on Mac OS X.

 1. Should we stick with the TLS implementation we have and wait for 10.8
 1.A. Does this mean 10.6 will not be supported in the future
 1.B. Will we be able to solve the TLS issues with dynamic libraries with the
 current implementation

 2. Should we try to emulate the 10.7 implementation our self to support 10.6 as
 well and at the same time be forward compatible

 I would hope that these are question we could try to figure out and agree upon.

The answer is: I don't know enough about it to pick the right solution. In the future, however, I think it is clear we should not be rolling our own solution - we should be compatible with whatever gcc does.
Dec 14 2011
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 19:13, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 3:06 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I'm not suggesting that you would know everything but at least that we
 could
 agree what we want to do about TLS and dynamic libraries on Mac OS X.

 1. Should we stick with the TLS implementation we have and wait for 10.8
 1.A. Does this mean 10.6 will not be supported in the future
 1.B. Will we be able to solve the TLS issues with dynamic libraries
 with the
 current implementation

 2. Should we try to emulate the 10.7 implementation our self to
 support 10.6 as
 well and at the same time be forward compatible

 I would hope that these are question we could try to figure out and
 agree upon.

The answer is: I don't know enough about it to pick the right solution.

Fair enough.
 In the future, however, I think it is clear we should not be rolling our
 own solution - we should be compatible with whatever gcc does.

Ok, thanks for clarifying. That would mean either option 2 or wait for 10.8. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> wrote in message 
news:jc9u6j$ebc$1 digitalmars.com...
 On 2011-12-14 10:56, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 12:45 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 The few times I've contributed to the compiler I've sent a patch or a
 pull
 request and the end result is that nothing happens. If I'm lucky I get
 a few
 comments, I answer them and then nothing.

There's currently one open dmd pull request from you. Any others you've done have been incorporated.

Yeah and what happened to that. I got a few comments about the tests failing, but they ended up being a misunderstanding. The same thing happened recently with my attempt of fixing dynamic libraries. It always feel like I'm ending with a question I never get an answer to.

I don't mean this as an attack on Tango or any of the Tango people, but FWIW, that's how I usually feel about Tango's support. It seems like most of my Tango questions on the msg board go unanswered or maybe just partially answered, whereas on Phobos2 I always get quick help from the NG.
Dec 14 2011
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 20:34, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 "Jacob Carlborg"<doob me.com>  wrote in message
 news:jc9u6j$ebc$1 digitalmars.com...
 On 2011-12-14 10:56, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 12:45 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 The few times I've contributed to the compiler I've sent a patch or a
 pull
 request and the end result is that nothing happens. If I'm lucky I get
 a few
 comments, I answer them and then nothing.

There's currently one open dmd pull request from you. Any others you've done have been incorporated.

Yeah and what happened to that. I got a few comments about the tests failing, but they ended up being a misunderstanding. The same thing happened recently with my attempt of fixing dynamic libraries. It always feel like I'm ending with a question I never get an answer to.

I don't mean this as an attack on Tango or any of the Tango people, but FWIW, that's how I usually feel about Tango's support. It seems like most of my Tango questions on the msg board go unanswered or maybe just partially answered, whereas on Phobos2 I always get quick help from the NG.

There's not much activity in the forums, that have happened to me as well. But when it comes to patches they are usually applied pretty fast. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 10:46, Gour wrote:
 On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 09:45:51 +0100
 Jacob Carlborg<doob me.com>  wrote:

 The few times I've contributed to the compiler I've sent a patch or a
 pull request and the end result is that nothing happens. If I'm lucky
 I get a few comments, I answer them and then nothing.

Heh, then fork it. ;)

I've already done that. But it's time consuming to keep up with the changes in upstream.
 Well, the situation is that resources in D are still not everwhelming
 and every bit spent on D1, means less time for D2.

 Moreover, D2 brings features which makes embracing D much more
 compelling. OK, I was not here in the time of D1, but seeing D1's
 feature list, I wouldn't think it is so special to invest in learning&
 using it.

 Another thing is I believe that Walter didn't delve in designing new
 language in order to be used for small hobby projects.

 Can you give me a list of some successful open-source projects written
 in D1 and/or some proprietary ones?

I don't know if all of them are successful but important: Tango, DWT, Minid, Orange, DVM, xfbuild to mention a few.
 Is there demand of paying support for D1?

 If not and if Walter prefers spending time on D2, I really do not
 understand why there is so much whining about it.

 If D1 wants to keep it, they're, afaict, free to do it.

 Is there anyone who can prevent Walter to write a post saying: "I'm fed up
 with D community being busy with faultfinding all the time, not being
 grateful for the time&  effort I'm putting into it, so from TODAY I'm
 quitting all the work on D1&  D2 and will focus on designing new X
 language?"

No
 I remember him from Zortech C++ compiler which was my *first* commercial
 package I bought and remembering the set of manuals coming along in a
 greyish hard box, I was thrilled with all support I got...same with
 updates.

 Now he is working for free...


 Sincerely,
 Gour

-- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
parent reply torhu <no spam.invalid> writes:
On 14.12.2011 14:05, Gour wrote:
 On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:15:58 +0100
 Jacob Carlborg<doob me.com>  wrote:

  I don't know if all of them are successful but important: Tango, DWT,
  Minid, Orange,

Not to say those are not important, but there are, afaict, falling in the category of D1's ecosystem, not end-user apps. Otoh Tango is ported to D2, Minid has moved to Croc, while DWT& Orange have D2 ports.

DWT for D2 is not in a usable state yet. I'd assume the same goes for Tango.
Dec 14 2011
next sibling parent reply torhu <no spam.invalid> writes:
On 14.12.2011 22:26, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 On 12/14/11, torhu<no spam.invalid>  wrote:
  DWT for D2 is not in a usable state yet.

It has a few build issues but most samples work. I've never used it for any projects yet though.

It doesn't work for much besides the samples.
Dec 14 2011
parent Stephan <spam extrawurst.org> writes:
On 14.12.2011 23:19, torhu wrote:
 On 14.12.2011 22:26, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
 On 12/14/11, torhu<no spam.invalid> wrote:
 DWT for D2 is not in a usable state yet.

It has a few build issues but most samples work. I've never used it for any projects yet though.

It doesn't work for much besides the samples.

thats plain wrong
Dec 15 2011
prev sibling parent Stephan <spam extrawurst.org> writes:
On 14.12.2011 21:32, torhu wrote:
 On 14.12.2011 14:05, Gour wrote:
 On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:15:58 +0100
 Jacob Carlborg<doob me.com> wrote:

 I don't know if all of them are successful but important: Tango, DWT,
 Minid, Orange,

Not to say those are not important, but there are, afaict, falling in the category of D1's ecosystem, not end-user apps. Otoh Tango is ported to D2, Minid has moved to Croc, while DWT& Orange have D2 ports.

DWT for D2 is not in a usable state yet. I'd assume the same goes for Tango.

Why is it not ? I am using it regularly. Ok it is broken now since the new release... but b4
Dec 15 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/14/2011 1:46 AM, Gour wrote:
 I remember him from Zortech C++ compiler which was my *first* commercial
 package I bought and remembering the set of manuals coming along in a
 greyish hard box,

Those are valuable collectors' items now!
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling parent Mirko Pilger <mirko.pilger gmail.com> writes:
 http://store.steampowered.com/app/18600/?snr=1_200_200_254_13

does anybody know if and when how this game makes use of the steamworks framework, which is a c++ library provided by valve for using the steam game services. the only solution would be to write a plain c wrapper around it, right?
Dec 15 2011
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-13 20:24, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 17:47:30 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1
 as long as there are users.

Will you really be still using D1 one year from now? Even then, why would you need official ongoing support from DigitalMars so much?

Well, I don't know. I don't think D2/Phobos is usable in its current state.
 For some perspective: the move to GitHub was less than one year ago. I
 was actually surprised of this when I revisited D's history recently,
 since it felt like a lot longer. The relative amount of progress done in
 this year alone is staggering.

 Apparently not, when Andrei really wants something he just decides

Sorry, but demanding that others spend their time to serve a minority when that time could be better spent to serve a majority seems rather selfish to me.

I think it's selfish to decide for the hole community. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2011
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/13/11 3:00 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-13 20:24, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 17:47:30 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1
 as long as there are users.

Will you really be still using D1 one year from now? Even then, why would you need official ongoing support from DigitalMars so much?

Well, I don't know. I don't think D2/Phobos is usable in its current state.

I think you're exaggerating a bit. At any rate, we sure know what to do to improve on that.
 For some perspective: the move to GitHub was less than one year ago. I
 was actually surprised of this when I revisited D's history recently,
 since it felt like a lot longer. The relative amount of progress done in
 this year alone is staggering.

 Apparently not, when Andrei really wants something he just decides

Sorry, but demanding that others spend their time to serve a minority when that time could be better spent to serve a majority seems rather selfish to me.

I think it's selfish to decide for the hole community.

Well the word "selfish" is not appropriate here because the decision does not bring me any benefit. Perhaps you meant "arrogant" or "conceited". I understand how you might see things that way, but please trust me on this one. It is the right thing do do, and the short-term difficulty will be greatly rewarded in the long run. Thanks, Andrei
Dec 13 2011
next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 00:03, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/11 3:00 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-13 20:24, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 17:47:30 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1
 as long as there are users.

Will you really be still using D1 one year from now? Even then, why would you need official ongoing support from DigitalMars so much?

Well, I don't know. I don't think D2/Phobos is usable in its current state.

I think you're exaggerating a bit. At any rate, we sure know what to do to improve on that.

That's the problem, I'm tried of waiting. D1 and Tango is usable now.
 For some perspective: the move to GitHub was less than one year ago. I
 was actually surprised of this when I revisited D's history recently,
 since it felt like a lot longer. The relative amount of progress done in
 this year alone is staggering.

 Apparently not, when Andrei really wants something he just decides

Sorry, but demanding that others spend their time to serve a minority when that time could be better spent to serve a majority seems rather selfish to me.

I think it's selfish to decide for the hole community.

Well the word "selfish" is not appropriate here because the decision does not bring me any benefit. Perhaps you meant "arrogant" or "conceited". I understand how you might see things that way, but please trust me on this one. It is the right thing do do, and the short-term difficulty will be greatly rewarded in the long run.

Probably, but as with the rest of the development of D2 everything happen to fast. TDPL was released without a compiler backing up all the features. Also no one knows what the correct behavior of a features is, what's in TDPL, what's in the compiler or what's in the spec. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/14/11 1:42 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I understand how you might see things that way, but please trust me on
 this one. It is the right thing do do, and the short-term difficulty
 will be greatly rewarded in the long run.

Probably, but as with the rest of the development of D2 everything happen to fast. TDPL was released without a compiler backing up all the features. Also no one knows what the correct behavior of a features is, what's in TDPL, what's in the compiler or what's in the spec.

That would have been a great point if the announcement used the date of December 31 of this year. Andrei
Dec 14 2011
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 09:11, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/14/11 1:42 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I understand how you might see things that way, but please trust me on
 this one. It is the right thing do do, and the short-term difficulty
 will be greatly rewarded in the long run.

Probably, but as with the rest of the development of D2 everything happen to fast. TDPL was released without a compiler backing up all the features. Also no one knows what the correct behavior of a features is, what's in TDPL, what's in the compiler or what's in the spec.

That would have been a great point if the announcement used the date of December 31 of this year. Andrei

It's still too soon because no one will know in what sate D2 is from a year from now. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/14/11 3:09 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-14 09:11, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/14/11 1:42 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I understand how you might see things that way, but please trust me on
 this one. It is the right thing do do, and the short-term difficulty
 will be greatly rewarded in the long run.

Probably, but as with the rest of the development of D2 everything happen to fast. TDPL was released without a compiler backing up all the features. Also no one knows what the correct behavior of a features is, what's in TDPL, what's in the compiler or what's in the spec.

That would have been a great point if the announcement used the date of December 31 of this year. Andrei

It's still too soon because no one will know in what sate D2 is from a year from now.

I predict that one year from now D2 will be better than D1 and the Tango/D2 port will be better than Tango/D1. Andrei
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 00:03, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/11 3:00 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I think it's selfish to decide for the hole community.

Well the word "selfish" is not appropriate here because the decision does not bring me any benefit. Perhaps you meant "arrogant" or "conceited".

I don't know that you're trying to achieve but it seems you trying to erase D1 from the history, pretending it never happened. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/14/11 1:44 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-14 00:03, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/11 3:00 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I think it's selfish to decide for the hole community.

Well the word "selfish" is not appropriate here because the decision does not bring me any benefit. Perhaps you meant "arrogant" or "conceited".

I don't know that you're trying to achieve but it seems you trying to erase D1 from the history, pretending it never happened.

How does announcing cease of support (not retiring the product) more than one year in advance equate with attempting to erase a product from history? Thanks, Andrei
Dec 14 2011
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 09:09, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/14/11 1:44 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-14 00:03, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/11 3:00 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I think it's selfish to decide for the hole community.

Well the word "selfish" is not appropriate here because the decision does not bring me any benefit. Perhaps you meant "arrogant" or "conceited".

I don't know that you're trying to achieve but it seems you trying to erase D1 from the history, pretending it never happened.

How does announcing cease of support (not retiring the product) more than one year in advance equate with attempting to erase a product from history?

That's the attitude you seem to have sometimes. Saying that D1 isn't usable because it lacks features. D1 is usable, something I couldn't say as much about D2. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
parent Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/14/11 3:09 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-14 09:09, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/14/11 1:44 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-14 00:03, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/13/11 3:00 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I think it's selfish to decide for the hole community.

Well the word "selfish" is not appropriate here because the decision does not bring me any benefit. Perhaps you meant "arrogant" or "conceited".

I don't know that you're trying to achieve but it seems you trying to erase D1 from the history, pretending it never happened.

How does announcing cease of support (not retiring the product) more than one year in advance equate with attempting to erase a product from history?

That's the attitude you seem to have sometimes. Saying that D1 isn't usable because it lacks features.

I didn't say that either! How can we sustain a conversation if you claim I say things I didn't? Andrei
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-13 22:41, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 21:00:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 Well, I don't know. I don't think D2/Phobos is usable in its current
 state.

Regarding the language itself - your opinion is neither rational nor popular. For contrast, I think that D2 is more usable than D1 right now due to higher expressiveness and new language features catching more bugs before I have to waste any time hunting them.

Yeah more broken/unfinished features, and there are still features from D1 that don't work properly.
 One year is plenty of time to complete a D2 port of Tango. Also,
 remember the state of Phobos of one year ago. Apply the delta to now,
 what do you see?

I'm tried of waiting for something to be useable, I want something usable now and that is D1 and Tango. I don't feel like spending too much time in porting Tango to D2.
 Most importantly, you didn't answer why you will require *continued
 support* of D1 one year in the future, and how it would justify
 sacrificing progress elsewhere. I think that a one-year warning is very
 generous.

I probably don't need the support.
 I think it's selfish to decide for the hole community.

Wait, so you actually believe that a vote would go in your favor?

No. It's not so much about the result (because I know basically everyone would vote to discontinue the D1 support), it's more about the attitude and the way it's handled. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2011
next sibling parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/14/11 1:35 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 No. It's not so much about the result (because I know basically everyone
 would vote to discontinue the D1 support), it's more about the attitude
 and the way it's handled.

How would you have handled the situation if you were in our place? Thanks, Andrei
Dec 14 2011
next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 09:13, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/14/11 1:35 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 No. It's not so much about the result (because I know basically everyone
 would vote to discontinue the D1 support), it's more about the attitude
 and the way it's handled.

How would you have handled the situation if you were in our place?

I would first wait longer, until D2 and Phobos is in a more usable state. Then I would first bring up the ideas you and Walter have to the community before anything is decided. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling parent Robert Clipsham <robert octarineparrot.com> writes:
On 14/12/2011 08:13, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 On 12/14/11 1:35 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 No. It's not so much about the result (because I know basically everyone
 would vote to discontinue the D1 support), it's more about the attitude
 and the way it's handled.

How would you have handled the situation if you were in our place?

"<your list of reasons why you're discontinuing D1> ... It is for these reasons we are planning to discontinue D1 support on December 31, 2012. Does anyone have any reasons why D1 support should be continued after these dates, or is there anything we've not thought about? For those of you still using D1, what can we do to make a transition more tempting and as pain-free as possible?" The result would almost certainly been the same, but you would have a better idea of what's missing in D2 that D1 has, and this would seem like more of a community decision. Obviously I'm not suggesting that either you or Walter should spent time working on things you have little or no interest in, but this was incredibly sudden, and had no community input. Side note: If you'd done the above and worded it correctly, you may have found someone to take over maintenance of D1 until support ends, thus reducing Walter's workload even sooner (just to clarify, this is just speculation and opinion, I'm not saying it would have happened). -- Robert http://octarineparrot.com/
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Jacob Carlborg" <doob me.com> wrote in message 
news:jc9jjs$2ouq$1 digitalmars.com...
 I'm tried of waiting for something to be useable, I want something usable 
 now and that is D1 and Tango. I don't feel like spending too much time in 
 porting Tango to D2.

I've been using D2 for over a year, and I've always found it perfectly usable. More usable than D1, in fact.
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 17:22:48 Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-13 14:52, Don wrote:
 On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
 discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than
 one
 year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries
 and
 applications to D2.

I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions. I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of community consulatation deplorable.

Apparently not, when Andrei really wants something he just decides without consulting the community.

Well, he _did_ say that he and Walter discussed it, so it's not like Andrei is deciding this on his own. No, it was not a community decision, but our resident BDFL (Benevolent Dictator for Life) decided it, and he's the one in charge of the compiler. Maybe they should have discussed it with us some first, but I'm not sure how much difference that would have ultimately made. Most of the D2 people would have been completely fine with it, if not welcomed it, whereas those who use only D1 would not only have been against it, but they probably wouldn't have been on this list to discuss it in the first place. It's only the people who use both which would have been around to complain about it. Did any D1 user think that it was anything other than a matter of time before Walter stopped supporting D1? Sure, it might have been more than a year away, but it had to be coming eventually. The main question has been how long it would be until D2 is stable enough that there's essentially no reason to choose D1 over D2 except personal preference. It's getting close, and with this announcement, there's a whole year before D1 won't be officially supported anymore. There's a good chance that there's enough time for the remaining kinks which would make D1 better to choose than D2 to be ironed out. And if someone still wants to use D1 beyond that, they're welcome to. They just won't get any further fixes or releases from Water. I don't know if Andrei and Walter went about this the right way or not, but it was coming eventually. And for that matter, when I first read Andrei's post, I thought that he meant the end of _this_ year, which would have been far worse for D1 users than _next_ year like he actually meant. On the bright side for those who prefer D1 and Tango, this announcement comes after announcements about major work being done to port Tango to D2, since it's not only going to become easier to port D1 to D2, but you'll be able to use Tango in D2 if you want to (and without having to forgoe all of Phobos in the process, since they'll now work alongside each other). - Jonathan M Davis
Dec 13 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "dsimcha" <dsimcha yahoo.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 16:55:23 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:
 On the bright side for those who prefer D1 and Tango, this 
 announcement comes after announcements about major work being 
 done to port Tango to D2, since it's not only going to become 
 easier to port D1 to D2, but you'll be able to use Tango in D2 
 if you want to (and without having to forgoe all of Phobos in 
 the process, since they'll now work alongside each other).

 - Jonathan M Davis

Has anyone actually tried using the D2 port of Tango for real work yet? If so, is it usable? Also, how do we explain to newbies about Tango as it relates to D2, without explaining the whole history? How do we justify to them that its functionality now overlaps with Phobos?
Dec 13 2011
parent reply Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
dsimcha Wrote:
 Also, how do we explain to newbies about Tango as it relates to 
 D2, without explaining the whole history?  How do we justify to 
 them that its functionality now overlaps with Phobos?

Why would you have to explain it? Tango is just another third party library on D2, and third parties do their own implementations of a lot of things for a lot of reasons; it's not uncommon. I'd just say don't draw any special attention to it and I don't think it will be a problem.
Dec 13 2011
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-13 19:18, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 dsimcha Wrote:
 Also, how do we explain to newbies about Tango as it relates to
 D2, without explaining the whole history?  How do we justify to
 them that its functionality now overlaps with Phobos?

Why would you have to explain it? Tango is just another third party library on D2, and third parties do their own implementations of a lot of things for a lot of reasons; it's not uncommon. I'd just say don't draw any special attention to it and I don't think it will be a problem.

I agree, just take a look at C++ libraries. Many of the implement their own string and vector classes even though it's available in the standard library. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/13/2011 12:34 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I agree, just take a look at C++ libraries. Many of the implement their own
 string and vector classes even though it's available in the standard library.

Look no further than Array in the dmd sources :-)
Dec 13 2011
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-13 21:40, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/13/2011 12:34 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I agree, just take a look at C++ libraries. Many of the implement
 their own
 string and vector classes even though it's available in the standard
 library.

Look no further than Array in the dmd sources :-)

That always made me wonder. Is that an array just used internally by DMD or something related to D arrays, or both? -- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 13 2011
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/13/2011 11:26 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 Look no further than Array in the dmd sources :-)

something related to D arrays, or both?

Array predates usable C++ compilers.
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 17:47:30 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
wrote:
 If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to 
 support D1 as long as there are users.

Will you really be still using D1 one year from now? Even then, why would you need official ongoing support from DigitalMars so much? For some perspective: the move to GitHub was less than one year ago. I was actually surprised of this when I revisited D's history recently, since it felt like a lot longer. The relative amount of progress done in this year alone is staggering.
 Apparently not, when Andrei really wants something he just 
 decides

Sorry, but demanding that others spend their time to serve a minority when that time could be better spent to serve a majority seems rather selfish to me.
Dec 13 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 21:00:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
wrote:
 Well, I don't know. I don't think D2/Phobos is usable in its 
 current state.

Regarding the language itself - your opinion is neither rational nor popular. For contrast, I think that D2 is more usable than D1 right now due to higher expressiveness and new language features catching more bugs before I have to waste any time hunting them. One year is plenty of time to complete a D2 port of Tango. Also, remember the state of Phobos of one year ago. Apply the delta to now, what do you see? Most importantly, you didn't answer why you will require *continued support* of D1 one year in the future, and how it would justify sacrificing progress elsewhere. I think that a one-year warning is very generous.
 I think it's selfish to decide for the hole community.

Wait, so you actually believe that a vote would go in your favor?
Dec 13 2011
parent bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Vladimir Panteleev:

 I think that D2 is more usable than D1 
 right now due to higher expressiveness and new language features 
 catching more bugs before I have to waste any time hunting them.

If Walter (and others like Kenji Hara) are game, more is doable about that :-) And I'd like to quantify how many (or how often) bugs those already present features are able to avoid. Bye, bearophile
Dec 13 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-12-14 10:08, Long Chang wrote:
 I use dwt and tango for some project recent.

Cool to here that's someone is using DWT.
 Before dwt2 and minid and other cool project is ready for d2, I will
 still need  D1.

Exactly and see, the D1 users start to pop up.
 On 13 December 2011 21:52, Don<nospam nospam.com>  wrote:
 On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
 discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than one
 year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries and
 applications to D2.

I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions. I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of community consulatation deplorable.


-- /Jacob Carlborg
Dec 14 2011
parent Hans Uhlig <hans.uhlig teamaol.com> writes:
On 12/14/2011 1:16 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-14 10:08, Long Chang wrote:
 I use dwt and tango for some project recent.

Cool to here that's someone is using DWT.
 Before dwt2 and minid and other cool project is ready for d2, I will
 still need D1.

Exactly and see, the D1 users start to pop up.

There have been 3.
 On 13 December 2011 21:52, Don<nospam nospam.com> wrote:
 On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
 discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than one
 year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries and
 applications to D2.

I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions. I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of community consulatation deplorable.



Dec 15 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 December 2011 at 10:25:59 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
wrote:
 There are constantly around 25 people in the Tango channel on 
 IRC.

A warning for those not familiar with IRC: this is not a very good metric. The #d channel has 101 people at this moment, but I don't recall most of them to ever say something. https://www.google.com/search?q=irc+idling
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Dejan Lekic" <dejan.lekic gmail.com> writes:
Before I say anything, I want to say that I always used Phobos 
because I do not want to sound to some people like Tango 
advocate. I humbly believe Tango is still superior in many places 
comparing to Phobos. Take a look at Tango conduits for an 
example, and you will understand what I mean. Tango has been made 
to be a framework ready for enterprise use, and I seriously 
believe Tango, if ported to work on top of druntime and phobos 
will still attract users.

I live in Java world nowadays, where Java IO and NIO 1 and 2 are 
standards. Tango is very close to NIO, and I believe it has been 
modeled after Java NIO. Kudos to designers and developers. I 
always wished it had been refactored to work on top of Phobos, 
which I still count as a low-level library.

In my perfect D world, druntime would be the lowest level 
library, phobos little bit higher, but still low level, and the 
third layer would be Tango, with all high-level features it 
possesses.

Kind regards
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jakob Bornecrantz" <wallbraker gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 December 2011 at 09:50:09 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 12:30 AM, Don wrote:
 So, didn't sound then as though D1 was a big issue. Yet a 
 month later you
 announce you've made a private decision about axing D1.
 Feels exactly like a military coup.

Well, it wasn't one. The thing is, as I posted in this thread recently, there's little to no evidence of D1 interest - nobody responded to the beta, no posts about D1, no new bug reports about D1, no response to the new D1 releases (yes, Jacob just did a reply to it), etc.

Another Jakob here, I'm a D1 user and I have contributed some changes to phobos to fix D1 use issues on Mac. Any problems I had with it are now resolved. (well there are some major ones with regards to the GC but D1 is stable so I just have to live with it). I'm sorry I haven't responded to the D1 beta's.
 I feel like I was supporting D1 in a vacuum. I've been thinking 
 about ending support for it for some time because of that.

 I don't know where the D1 community is, or even if it exists 
 anymore.

I'm here! Anyways couldn't you just do releases less often or only when there is something to release? Like every other D2 release to lessen the burden? Cheers, Jakob.
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
On 12/14/11, torhu <no spam.invalid> wrote:
 DWT for D2 is not in a usable state yet.

It has a few build issues but most samples work. I've never used it for any projects yet though.
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jakob Bornecrantz" <wallbraker gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 14 December 2011 at 18:55:23 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 10:28 AM, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:
 I don't know where the D1 community is, or even if it exists 
 anymore.

I'm here!

Thanks for speaking up.

np.
 Anyways couldn't you just do releases less often or only when 
 there is something to release? Like every other D2 release to
 lessen the burden?

Can I turn that around and ask what issues there are with migrating your code base to D2?

In short it can be answered with the questions "Can you guarantee it work?" and "Can I justify the amount of work I have to put in for the gain?", the thing is I have a had a lot of problems with D1 toolchain, I have fixed or worked around these issues and I'm wondering if I have to work around those or other again. I am currently supporting 3 platforms (Mac, Linux & Windows), so that factors in as well (me having fixed some issues on Mac for D1). My current code base is 40Kloc's where about 8Kloc of those are library bindings, on top of that it also includes a couple of C projects sources (expat, lua and some other misc libraries). So I would have to convert all that code to D2 and also fix any issues that might arise from that conversion. That said I think that it would mostly running the code through dmd2 and just fix any cases where it complains. But it probably wouldn't be a trivial amount of work. I don't use Phobos that much in my code so I wont have to change much code with that regards, then again I don't see much value of the new Phobos since there isn't much new there for me. In fact I sort of have a philosophical disagreement with the boost/templet-ification of it and the language in general. Also in the beginning when I was using D1 and it moved much more faster I would often find myself having to work around or change various parts of the program due to new bugs or features. I think D2 is much better in the bug department then D1 was so that isn't much of a issue, but its still not really stable and its more work for me. That said there are a couple of features that if they where implemented in D2 would encourage me to switch. One of the biggest problem right now is that I can't build my project on Windows and is forced to cross compile it with GDC from Linux. This stems from me having a mixed C & D project and not getting the various compilers to get along (Both DMD & DMC and GDC & GCC, would either not compile or produce broken binaries). So making DMD work with the mingw toolchain on Windows would be really appreciated (COFF support right?). Improvements to the GC, I'm currently having to thread lightly around various issues with the GC, again its works currently so I don't want to work around it again. Adopting a two step approach employed by GObject would might help. http://developer.gnome.org/gobject/stable/gobject-memory.html All said and done, knowing what I know today I would probably not do the project in D1, but I have thrown my dice and I'm "stuck" (not used strongly here, I still like a lot of D), but I'm not sure I would want to go through all that pain again with D2. As Andrie have said D has a tendency to come unglued when you start to do advanced thing, and the language dies a death of a thousand paper-cuts (and some knife stabs). *phew* I do appreciate the work you have put into D over the years, I just don't want to have meaningless battles with language/- compiler bugs. I hope this message is useful for you. Cheers, Jakob.
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Thursday, 15 December 2011 at 00:09:32 UTC, Jesse Phillips 
wrote:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABA_Games

ABA Games are technically D0 ;) (They predate the D 1.00 compiler)
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips+d gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:32:35 +0100, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:

 My current code base is 40Kloc's where about 8Kloc of those are library
 bindings, on top of that it also includes a couple of C projects sources
 (expat, lua and some other misc libraries). So I would have to convert
 all that code to D2 and also fix any issues that might arise from that
 conversion.

Hello Jakob, While I can't give any specific answers to your questions I will say that I"ve actually gone to the effort of porting some libraries, I where I wasn't familiar with the codebase (yes I've gotten things wrong), DFL and most recently Juno. Such efforts were not a great effort. cloc reports about 36k loc for Juno. One thing I did when I made these changes was that I committed similar changes in one commit (some missed though). I considered writing a lessons learned from this, but its extra time. You can check out the commits from Nov 6 to get an idea of what goes into a conversion. https://github.com/he-the-great/Juno-Windows-Class-Library/commits/master? page=2
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jakob Bornecrantz" <wallbraker gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 15 December 2011 at 02:10:09 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 4:32 PM, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:
 In short it can be answered with the questions "Can you
 guarantee it work?"

A guarantee would be something like you paid $x for it and I would refund your $x if you weren't completely satisfied (which I often do for Digital Mars C++ and other paid products). But I don't see how I could offer a guarantee on a free product where I have no control over your satisfaction.
 and "Can I justify the amount of work I have
 to put in for the gain?",

That's something only you can answer.

Not the answer I was expecting for the first question, but it ultimately turned out to be the same, "you or anybody else can't, and neither can I." The point is I have something that works now moving to something new means risks and having to learn new things which ultimately ends up meaning time spent on other things then driving the project forward. I do realize there are some similarities with this argument and your argument for discontinuing D1 support, so I can't argue those reasons. So the way I see it now, is there are some minor risks involved and a upfront investment of time to convert the code, for no real gain. Tho std.concurrency is looking pretty neat.
 the thing is I have a had a lot of
 problems with D1 toolchain, I have fixed or worked around these
 issues and I'm wondering if I have to work around those or 
 other
 again. I am currently supporting 3 platforms (Mac, Linux &
 Windows), so that factors in as well (me having fixed some
 issues on Mac for D1).

I can ask: 1. Are these issues all reported in Bugzilla? 2. Are your fixes also supplied to Bugzilla? With (1), I then will know about the issues, and myself or one of the many contributors can supply a fix. With (2), I can incorporate your fixes into the official toolchain so it will never darken anyone else's doorstep again.

The issues I have ran into long ago, I'm pretty sure I haven't filed bugs about, sorry about that. The Mac platform issues I have: filed bugs for or reported me too's, generated pull requests, which have been pulled. So they are all resolved. I think that my biggest fear is running into new bugs that I will have to waste a day or so of productivity on.
 My current code base is 40Kloc's where about 8Kloc of those
 are library bindings, on top of that it also includes a couple
 of C projects sources (expat, lua and some other misc
 libraries). So I would have to convert all that code to D2 and
 also fix any issues that might arise from that conversion.
 That said I think that it would mostly running the code
 through dmd2 and just fix any cases where it complains. But it
 probably wouldn't be a trivial amount of work.

I don't know how much work that would be. I will say that 40Kloc is not a huge base of code, as these things go. I don't think you'll have to do anything with the C code or other non-D sources.

My point was it would not be a non-trivial amount of work. You are of course correct that the non-D code would be left alone.
 I don't use Phobos that much in my code so I wont have to
 change much code with that regards, then again I don't see much
 value of the new Phobos since there isn't much new there for 
 me.
 In fact I sort of have a philosophical disagreement with the
 boost/templet-ification of it and the language in general.

That's fair, but it's also something that could be a separate, wide-ranging discussion.
 Also in the beginning when I was using D1 and it moved much
 more faster I would often find myself having to work around
 or change various parts of the program due to new bugs or
 features. I think D2 is much better in the bug department then
 D1 was so that isn't much of a issue, but its still not really
 stable and its more work for me.

I understand the pain that breaking changes cause, and have pushed hard to stop a few that I felt the minor gains on did not justify the disruption.
 That said there are a couple of features that if they where
 implemented in D2 would encourage me to switch.

 One of the biggest problem right now is that I can't build
 my project on Windows and is forced to cross compile it with 
 GDC
 from Linux. This stems from me having a mixed C & D project and
 not getting the various compilers to get along (Both DMD & DMC
 and GDC & GCC, would either not compile or produce broken
 binaries). So making DMD work with the mingw toolchain on
 Windows would be really appreciated (COFF support right?).

I cannot help with this without knowing what the specific problems are.

I can try and spend some time on this again. But the last time I tried I got random crashes inside the graphics driver with DMD & DMC while the same code cross compiled worked just fine. That was after a long day fighting various other versions of mingw-gdc trying to get it to work. I have to admit I at that point gave up. I know this is not ideal, sorry about that. That said it might all work if I move to D2 and it might not, so there is that to factor into things as well.
 Improvements to the GC, I'm currently having to thread lightly
 around various issues with the GC, again its works currently so
 I don't want to work around it again. Adopting a two step
 approach employed by GObject would might help.
 http://developer.gnome.org/gobject/stable/gobject-memory.html


 All said and done, knowing what I know today I would probably
 not do the project in D1, but I have thrown my dice and I'm
 "stuck" (not used strongly here, I still like a lot of D), but
 I'm not sure I would want to go through all that pain again
 with D2. As Andrie have said D has a tendency to come unglued
 when you start to do advanced thing, and the language dies a
 death of a thousand paper-cuts (and some knife stabs).

You don't have to write advanced code using D2. You can still write "C style" code with it, and even "D1 style" code in it.

C style code is mostly what I have been doing anyways. I think the point I was trying to make is that D2 has the same unglued problem as D1. It might be different set of problems, but probably the same. That said C and C++ has its own set of problems and you just learn to work around those. If they differ from D1 to D2 I would have to relearn those. That said I do have some advanced code in there, mostly relating to resource management, the code itself isn't, but writing it was a uphill battle against the GC. But I'm doing things not allowed, accessing objects from the dtor of a object. Those problems could be solved with the two step approach outlined by the link above.
 I do appreciate the work you have put into D over the years,
 I just don't want to have meaningless battles with language/-
 compiler bugs. I hope this message is useful for you.

It is, but I really do need more detail as outlined above.

I have tried to explain, I think my biggest concern is having to waste time for no gain.
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jakob Bornecrantz" <wallbraker gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 15 December 2011 at 03:19:47 UTC, Jesse Phillips 
wrote:
 On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:32:35 +0100, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:

 My current code base is 40Kloc's where about 8Kloc of those 
 are library
 bindings, on top of that it also includes a couple of C 
 projects sources
 (expat, lua and some other misc libraries). So I would have to 
 convert
 all that code to D2 and also fix any issues that might arise 
 from that
 conversion.

Hello Jakob, While I can't give any specific answers to your questions I will say that I"ve actually gone to the effort of porting some libraries, I where I wasn't familiar with the codebase (yes I've gotten things wrong), DFL and most recently Juno. Such efforts were not a great effort. cloc reports about 36k loc for Juno. One thing I did when I made these changes was that I committed similar changes in one commit (some missed though). I considered writing a lessons learned from this, but its extra time. You can check out the commits from Nov 6 to get an idea of what goes into a conversion. https://github.com/he-the-great/Juno-Windows-Class-Library/commits/master?page=2

Thanks, those are encouraging words, I'm having a bit of problems figuring out the commits, but that was just after a quick glance. Doing a quick writeup would be most appreciated, by me or anybody who is going to convert. Cheers, Jakob.
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips+d gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 05:58:01 +0100, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:

 Thanks, those are encouraging words, I'm having a bit of problems
 figuring out the commits, but that was just after a quick glance.
 Doing a quick writeup would be most appreciated, by me or anybody who is
 going to convert.
 
 Cheers, Jakob.

Yes, I realize the commits by themselves are hard to understand, and even worse when you don't know how D2 operates.
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Thursday, 15 December 2011 at 10:37:00 UTC, Mirko Pilger wrote:
 http://store.steampowered.com/app/18600/?snr=1_200_200_254_13

does anybody know if and when how this game makes use of the steamworks framework, which is a c++ library provided by valve for using the steam game services. the only solution would be to write a plain c wrapper around it, right?

Have a look at Open Steamworks. It's a C API which returns interfaces, similar to DirectX APIs. These are easily usable from both C (structs with function pointers) and C++ (classes with pure-virtual functions).
Dec 15 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Regarding some things said by Walter in this Reddit thread:
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/nbndg/fedora_17_will_include_support_for_the_d/

I should add that the XMM register support is for 64 bit targets, and also the
register allocator will enregister float and double variables in XMM registers.<

Will DMD use 8 XMM registers in 32 bit code too?
Putting the compiler in D would make it difficult to integrate the D front end
into the C/C++ back ends of gcc and llvm.<

Writing the reference front-end in D has some advantages: - Other people have lot of C/C++ code; if they want to use D they will probably want to interface C/C++ with D code. So writing the compiler front-end in D is a way to eat some of the D dog food, and see/test how much good such interfacing is, and eventually it's a push to improve it. - It's a way to eat some D dog food in general, because a compiler front-end is a medium-sized project that requires some performance. If some parts of the D2 language are badly designed or they lead to low performance (like fixed sized array assignment) this is a good way to spot such problems and a way to push to fix them. - I have now understood that if you want a safe & reliable language you need a reliable compiler too. Because a very safe and very well designed language produces buggy and unsafe programs if the compiler is buggy. Writing the front-end in D allows to avoid several compiler bugs from the beginning. - Writing the front-end in D is probably going to speed up a bit the development of the D compiler, with more expressiveness, less code, more readable code, less bug-prone code, etc. Bye, bearophile
Dec 15 2011
next sibling parent Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 12/15/2011 03:33 PM, bearophile wrote:
 Regarding some things said by Walter in this Reddit thread:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/nbndg/fedora_17_will_include_support_for_the_d/

 I should add that the XMM register support is for 64 bit targets, and also the
register allocator will enregister float and double variables in XMM registers.<

Will DMD use 8 XMM registers in 32 bit code too?
 Putting the compiler in D would make it difficult to integrate the D front end
into the C/C++ back ends of gcc and llvm.<

Writing the reference front-end in D has some advantages: - Other people have lot of C/C++ code; if they want to use D they will probably want to interface C/C++ with D code. So writing the compiler front-end in D is a way to eat some of the D dog food, and see/test how much good such interfacing is, and eventually it's a push to improve it.

I agree.
 - It's a way to eat some D dog food in general, because a compiler front-end
is a medium-sized project that requires some performance. If some parts of the
D2 language are badly designed or they lead to low performance (like fixed
sized array assignment) this is a good way to spot such problems and a way to
push to fix them.

The only performance problem is the GC, and that could just be turned off (as DMD handles it ;)). Fixed array assignment certainly won't cause any trouble.
 - I have now understood that if you want a safe&  reliable language you need a
reliable compiler too. Because a very safe and very well designed language
produces buggy and unsafe programs if the compiler is buggy. Writing the
front-end in D allows to avoid several compiler bugs from the beginning.
 - Writing the front-end in D is probably going to speed up a bit the
development of the D compiler, with more expressiveness, less code, more
readable code, less bug-prone code, etc.

Exactly. But that front-end needs to be written from scratch.
 Bye,
 bearophile

Dec 15 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 12/15/2011 03:33 PM, bearophile wrote:
 Regarding some things said by Walter in this Reddit thread:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/nbndg/fedora_17_will_include_support_for_the_d/

 I should add that the XMM register support is for 64 bit targets, and also the
register allocator will enregister float and double variables in XMM registers.<

Will DMD use 8 XMM registers in 32 bit code too?

An issue is that 32 bit x86 architectures do not necessarily provide any SSE support. GCC will not use XMM registers by default either.
Dec 15 2011
parent reply bearophile <bearophileHUGS lycos.com> writes:
Timon Gehr:

 Fixed array assignment certainly won't cause any trouble.<

I don't know about the D front end, but those arrays have caused performance problems in my D2 code. Later I have taken more care, assigning items one after the other, writing: int[3] a = void; a[0] = ... a[1] = ... a[2] = ... Instead of: int[3] a = [..., ..., ...];
 An issue is that 32 bit x86 architectures do not necessarily provide any SSE
support.

Most PCs have SSE2 support. Lot of PCs today have SSE3 too.
 GCC will not use XMM registers by default either.

LLVM-GCC (and probably Clang too) use SSE registers on default on 32 bit Windows. And with modern GCC-MinGW I usually compile code with those registers too on 32 bit Windows, using the right compiler switches. Bye, bearophile
Dec 15 2011
parent Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 12/15/2011 04:37 PM, bearophile wrote:
 Timon Gehr:

 Fixed array assignment certainly won't cause any trouble.<

I don't know about the D front end, but those arrays have caused performance problems in my D2 code. Later I have taken more care, assigning items one after the other, writing: int[3] a = void; a[0] = ... a[1] = ... a[2] = ... Instead of: int[3] a = [..., ..., ...];

I usually use: static _a = [1, 2, 3]; int[3] a = _a; This certainly should be fixed, what I wanted to say is, there are not many fixed size arrays in a compiler front-end.
 An issue is that 32 bit x86 architectures do not necessarily provide any SSE
support.

Most PCs have SSE2 support. Lot of PCs today have SSE3 too.
 GCC will not use XMM registers by default either.

LLVM-GCC (and probably Clang too) use SSE registers on default on 32 bit Windows. And with modern GCC-MinGW I usually compile code with those registers too on 32 bit Windows, using the right compiler switches.

Dec 15 2011
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/15/2011 6:33 AM, bearophile wrote:
 I should add that the XMM register support is for 64 bit targets, and also
 the register allocator will enregister float and double variables in XMM
 registers.<


We'll see, but it's a harder problem.
 Putting the compiler in D would make it difficult to integrate the D front
 end into the C/C++ back ends of gcc and llvm.<

Writing the reference front-end in D has some advantages: - Other people have lot of C/C++ code; if they want to use D they will probably want to interface C/C++ with D code. So writing the compiler front-end in D is a way to eat some of the D dog food, and see/test how much good such interfacing is, and eventually it's a push to improve it.

D is designed to use C libraries. It is not designed to be a library accessible from C - D wants to be in charge of the startup.
 If some parts of the D2 language are badly designed or they
 lead to low performance (like fixed sized array assignment) this is a good
 way to spot such problems and a way to push to fix them.

That isn't the issue.
Dec 15 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich gmail.com> writes:
Also, port from the smallest module to the largest, OR the ones that
have the least dependencies towards those that have more.

Basically, you want to be able to unittest your modules as soon as you
port them, so the modules that import these newly tested modules will
call into functions that you know will work.
Dec 15 2011
prev sibling parent "Jakob Bornecrantz" <wallbraker gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 15 December 2011 at 20:42:26 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
wrote:
 On 2011-12-15 20:41, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/15/2011 9:49 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote:
 * Do it all in one go, and DO NOT GET DISTRACTED. The moment 
 you start
 trying to
 clean up code as well as finish porting it you introduce lots 
 of issues

I've done many projects that translated code from one language to another, some were pretty large. The One Big Most Important Rule is: !!!! DO NOT REFACTOR/ENHANCE/IMPROVE/FIX/CLEANUP THE CODE WHILE TRANSLATING !!!! I know how tempting it is. It's incredibly tempting. It's a huge mistake. The method that works is to turn your brain off, and simply translate. Strive for a 1:1 correspondence between the original code and the translated code. Do not divert from this until after your translation is done, and it behaves identically to the original. The reason is that the translated version inevitably will not behave like the original. A lot of things will be broken. If you did a 1:1 translation, you can instrument both, find where the translation diverges, and fix it in a fairly quick and straightforward manner. If you changed the way it is organized or works, then you have no idea if it is a translation error or your changes broke it, and you have a much, much harder time fixing it.

Having ported the Mac OS X version of SWT from Java to D (and a couple of other code bases) I completely agree with everything above. You just have to turn your mind off and work like a machine when porting. It's extremely tempting do some small fixes here and there but restrain yourself, you'll thank yourself in the end.

Thanks for the tips! Cheers, Jakob.
Dec 16 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 18:47:29 Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-13 17:53, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 17:22:48 Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-12-13 14:52, Don wrote:
 On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
 discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more
 than
 one
 year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate
 libraries
 and
 applications to D2.

I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions. I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of community consulatation deplorable.

Apparently not, when Andrei really wants something he just decides without consulting the community.

Well, he _did_ say that he and Walter discussed it, so it's not like Andrei is deciding this on his own. No, it was not a community decision, but our resident BDFL (Benevolent Dictator for Life) decided it, and he's the one in charge of the compiler. Maybe they should have discussed it with us some first, but I'm not sure how much difference that would have ultimately made. Most of the D2 people would have been completely fine with it, if not welcomed it, whereas those who use only D1 would not only have been against it, but they probably wouldn't have been on this list to discuss it in the first place. It's only the people who use both which would have been around to complain about it.

Exactly, and why do you think no D1 users are on this list?

At least as far as people discussing anything, I don't think that there are very many people on this list who use only D1, because pretty much all of the discussions relate to D2. There's no discussion of D1 topics. So, while there may be D1-only users who lurk, or there are D1 people who discuss D2 here but never use it, I don't see how there could be much in the way of D1-only people in this list. Sure, there may be plenty of people who use both D1 and D2, but this list is quite D2-centric in general. - Jonathan M Davis
Dec 13 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 19:10:39 dsimcha wrote:
 On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 16:55:23 UTC, Jonathan M Davis
 
 wrote:
 On the bright side for those who prefer D1 and Tango, this
 announcement comes after announcements about major work being
 done to port Tango to D2, since it's not only going to become
 easier to port D1 to D2, but you'll be able to use Tango in D2
 if you want to (and without having to forgoe all of Phobos in
 the process, since they'll now work alongside each other).
 
 - Jonathan M Davis

Has anyone actually tried using the D2 port of Tango for real work yet? If so, is it usable?

No idea. There were announcements and discussions related to it in the announce group. I don't know where it really stands though.
 Also, how do we explain to newbies about Tango as it relates to
 D2, without explaining the whole history? How do we justify to
 them that its functionality now overlaps with Phobos?

I'm not sure that we really need to. Tango is a 3rd party library which anyone is free to use if they want to, and at this point, the only code that is likely to be using it is code ported from D1. 3rd party libraries are free to implement whatever they want - even if it overlaps with the standard library. If someone really wants to know the history of Tango, then we can explain it to them, but the only reasons that it generally comes up are either because of people who already knew about the split in D1 and asking about it and because of functionality that Phobos lacks but which Tango has. Time will fix the first part, and filling out and improving Phobos' functionality will fix the second. So, ultimately, Tango will just be another 3rd party library (albeit a large and solid one) which people can choose to use in their projects if they so desire. - Jonathan M Davis
Dec 13 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips+D gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:55:35 -0800
Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 On 12/13/2011 9:47 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support
 D1 as long as there are users.

Yes, I did say that. For some time now, I've been releasing D1 betas and have not received any response to them. I haven't noticed new bug reports for D1. I haven't seen posts here about D1. I announced the D1 1.072 release a few days ago, and there wasn't a single comment on it.

Doesn't this just mean happy users? Which actually is still in support of the choice. I'd definitely suggest D1 users voice which bugs they wish to see squashed in the next year.
Dec 13 2011
parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 11:53:07 Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/13/2011 11:32 AM, Jesse Phillips wrote:
 Doesn't this just mean happy users? Which actually is still in support
 of the choice.

My experience is that no feedback == no users.

Happy users generally aren't going to say much. Unhappy users are much more likely to say stuff. It's quite possible to have fairly low feedback (or in the extreme, no feedback) if a product is solid enough, but in general, the more users that you have, the more likely it is that some of them will be unhappy, which will ultimately result in feedback. So I'd say that no feedback doesn't necessarily mean no users, but it does tend to be indicative of a low number of users. - Jonathan M Davis
Dec 13 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips+D gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 19:10:39 +0100
"dsimcha" <dsimcha yahoo.com> wrote:

 On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 16:55:23 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
 wrote:
 On the bright side for those who prefer D1 and Tango, this 
 announcement comes after announcements about major work being 
 done to port Tango to D2, since it's not only going to become 
 easier to port D1 to D2, but you'll be able to use Tango in D2 
 if you want to (and without having to forgoe all of Phobos in 
 the process, since they'll now work alongside each other).

 - Jonathan M Davis

Has anyone actually tried using the D2 port of Tango for real work yet? If so, is it usable? Also, how do we explain to newbies about Tango as it relates to D2, without explaining the whole history? How do we justify to them that its functionality now overlaps with Phobos?

Hehe, Little blast from the past: http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/forums/topic/257
Dec 13 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
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On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 16:57:11 -0600
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 It's difficult to work on something you don't believe in. Yes, we
 could keep D1 on artificial life support until we retire, but to what
 end?

None. Nobody pays for D1 support... I did use one of package managers on my Linux distro and one day the following appeared in the forums: "Hello xyz users. I just wanted you to know I am not going to work on foobar anymore...If you like foobar and want to keep it going start hacking on it..." Iow, there was no 1-year-ahead announcement...and reaction from people were like: "Thanks for the heads-up and thanks for all the great work :-)" So, let's leave people to work on that which they like to work on and that has future. Sincerely, Gour --=20 When your intelligence has passed out of the dense forest=20 of delusion, you shall become indifferent to all that has=20 been heard and all that is to be heard. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
Dec 13 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
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On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:52:59 +0100
Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> wrote:

 Yeah, I noticed that. I'm still using D1. I usually don't have time
 to try all beta versions or releases for that matter. Your making
 solid improvements in every release and I'm grateful for that.=20

 I apologize if I haven't shown any gratitude.

I'd say it's not just question of 'showing gratitude', but how many people are contributing fixes to D1? Why would Walter be obliged to (mostly) single-handedly supported something he is not much interested in? Compiler is free, everyone can contribute if they like...it's (almost) like in many other open-source projects... Sincerely, Gour --=20 Never was there a time when I did not exist,=20 nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future=20 shall any of us cease to be. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
Dec 13 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Damian Ziemba" <nazriel driv.pl> writes:
On Saturday, 10 December 2011 at 21:19:02 UTC, Andrei 
Alexandrescu wrote:
 Hello everyone,

With all respect to you Andrei, you had no input in D1, I thought that if D1 support will be ever dropped, Walter will announce it. Well... In my humble opinion D1 community is still active. Assuming that nobody uses it is wrong. Walter, thanks for good job on it! I will still stick to it for any serious project (non-hobby ones). I wish you good luck with bringing D2 stable. I just hope I will see such official news from you. Best regards, Damian Ziemba
Dec 13 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/14/11 1:59 AM, Damian Ziemba wrote:
 On Saturday, 10 December 2011 at 21:19:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Hello everyone,

With all respect to you Andrei, you had no input in D1, I thought that if D1 support will be ever dropped, Walter will announce it. Well... In my humble opinion D1 community is still active.

Is there an online hang out place for the community - a forum?
 Assuming that nobody
 uses it is wrong.

I am not assuming that. Thanks, Andrei
Dec 14 2011
parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Andrei Alexandrescu" <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote in message 
news:jc9lgq$2tip$1 digitalmars.com...
 On 12/14/11 1:59 AM, Damian Ziemba wrote:
 On Saturday, 10 December 2011 at 21:19:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 Hello everyone,

With all respect to you Andrei, you had no input in D1, I thought that if D1 support will be ever dropped, Walter will announce it. Well... In my humble opinion D1 community is still active.

Is there an online hang out place for the community - a forum?

There's the official Tango forums: http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/forums But there's very little activity there. In the last 6 months (May 14, 2011 - Dec 14, 2011), there have been 22 posts (across 8 threads, and 7 unique users), broken down like this: - Jacob Carlborg: 10 posts - Me: 3 posts (All directly related to my contibutions to Jacob's D1/Tango-based DVM - which I'll reiterate is a fantastic tool, btw) - Kris (one of the main Tango devs): 3 posts - Lars (one of the main Tango devs): 1 post - Other: 5 posts (3 unique users, none of whom I recognized)
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Long Chang <changedalone gmail.com> writes:
I use dwt and tango for some project recent.

Before dwt2 and minid and other cool project is ready for d2, I will
still need  D1.

On 13 December 2011 21:52, Don <nospam nospam.com> wrote:
 On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
 discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than one
 year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries and
 applications to D2.

I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions. I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of community consulatation deplorable.

Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
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On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 09:45:51 +0100
Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> wrote:

 The few times I've contributed to the compiler I've sent a patch or a=20
 pull request and the end result is that nothing happens. If I'm lucky
 I get a few comments, I answer them and then nothing.

Heh, then fork it. ;) Well, the situation is that resources in D are still not everwhelming and every bit spent on D1, means less time for D2. Moreover, D2 brings features which makes embracing D much more compelling. OK, I was not here in the time of D1, but seeing D1's feature list, I wouldn't think it is so special to invest in learning & using it. Another thing is I believe that Walter didn't delve in designing new language in order to be used for small hobby projects. Can you give me a list of some successful open-source projects written in D1 and/or some proprietary ones? Is there demand of paying support for D1? If not and if Walter prefers spending time on D2, I really do not understand why there is so much whining about it. If D1 wants to keep it, they're, afaict, free to do it. Is there anyone who can prevent Walter to write a post saying: "I'm fed up with D community being busy with faultfinding all the time, not being grateful for the time & effort I'm putting into it, so from TODAY I'm quitting all the work on D1 & D2 and will focus on designing new X language?" I remember him from Zortech C++ compiler which was my *first* commercial package I bought and remembering the set of manuals coming along in a greyish hard box, I was thrilled with all support I got...same with updates. Now he is working for free... Sincerely, Gour --=20 The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks=20 himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out=20 by the three modes of material nature. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
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On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:15:58 +0100
Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> wrote:

 I don't know if all of them are successful but important: Tango, DWT,=20
 Minid, Orange,=20

Not to say those are not important, but there are, afaict, falling in the category of D1's ecosystem, not end-user apps. Otoh Tango is ported to D2, Minid has moved to Croc, while DWT & Orange have D2 ports.
 DVM,=20

don't know about that one, but
 xfbuild to mention a few.

is revived with a D2 port. So, it looks that most of the stuff is ported to D2 and therefore not a great loss. Sincerely, Gour --=20 It is far better to discharge one's prescribed duties, even though=20 faultily, than another's duties perfectly. Destruction in the course=20 of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips+D gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 03:48:57 -0600
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 How long?
 
 Andrei
 

Could it may be taken as a planned discontinuation where it can be re-evaluated at that time with the expectation that D2 will be ready at that time (hopefully with 6 months to spare). To me it feels more like a goal to get D2 suitable for those currently on D1. GDC and LDC can of course make their own path.
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jesse Phillips <jessekphillips+D gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:46:18 +0100
Gour <gour atmarama.net> wrote:

 Can you give me a list of some successful open-source projects written
 in D1 and/or some proprietary ones?

http://store.steampowered.com/app/18600/?snr=1_200_200_254_13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABA_Games
Dec 14 2011
next sibling parent Bane <branimir.milosavljevic gmail.com> writes:
Jesse Phillips Wrote:

 On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:46:18 +0100
 Gour <gour atmarama.net> wrote:
 
 Can you give me a list of some successful open-source projects written
 in D1 and/or some proprietary ones?

http://store.steampowered.com/app/18600/?snr=1_200_200_254_13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABA_Games

http://blissradius.com/
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Jesse Phillips" <jessekphillips+D gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:20111214160926.00007dcb unknown...
 On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:46:18 +0100
 Gour <gour atmarama.net> wrote:

 Can you give me a list of some successful open-source projects written
 in D1 and/or some proprietary ones?

http://store.steampowered.com/app/18600/?snr=1_200_200_254_13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABA_Games

A lot of the ABA Games stuff was actually from before the days of D1, like v0.xxx. For whatever that's worth. (Just random trivia I guess...)
Dec 14 2011
parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> wrote in message 
news:jcc9d8$2bo5$1 digitalmars.com...
 "Jesse Phillips" <jessekphillips+D gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:20111214160926.00007dcb unknown...
 On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:46:18 +0100
 Gour <gour atmarama.net> wrote:

 Can you give me a list of some successful open-source projects written
 in D1 and/or some proprietary ones?

http://store.steampowered.com/app/18600/?snr=1_200_200_254_13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABA_Games

A lot of the ABA Games stuff was actually from before the days of D1, like v0.xxx. For whatever that's worth. (Just random trivia I guess...)

Nevermind. I should read the other replies before posting :)
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 18:10:12 Walter Bright wrote:
 On 12/14/2011 4:32 PM, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:
 One of the biggest problem right now is that I can't build
 my project on Windows and is forced to cross compile it with GDC
 from Linux. This stems from me having a mixed C & D project and
 not getting the various compilers to get along (Both DMD & DMC
 and GDC & GCC, would either not compile or produce broken
 binaries). So making DMD work with the mingw toolchain on
 Windows would be really appreciated (COFF support right?).

I cannot help with this without knowing what the specific problems are.

It sounds like the chief problem is the fact that dmd and dmc aren't compatible with the object file format that pretty much every other compiler on Windows uses. It's probably _the_ biggest complaint of the folks trying to use C with D on Windows. - Jonathan M Davis
Dec 14 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
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On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:37:58 +0100
Stephan <spam extrawurst.org> wrote:

 Why is it not ? I am using it regularly. Ok it is broken now since
 the new release... but b4

How are you, in general, satisfied with DWT2? How it compares with qt/wx/gtk+ ? Sincerely, Gour --=20 As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body,=20 from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes=20 into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered=20 by such a change. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
Dec 15 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Mattbeui" <matheus_nab hotmail.com> writes:
I am C programmer, but I had already did a little OO programming 
in Python and Delphi. So after look for a growth in my studies 
and enter definetly in OO programming, I found a  video on 
youtube from Andrei Alexandrescu. And I got hooked since then.

But that was just the beginning, until I discover that there are 
D1 and D2, tango and phobos Et cetera. Many options to get lost.

I've had a great help from the d-guys at #d channel on IRC. But 
anyway... I think choosing one language is the right choice for 
everyone, mainly for the new users. And you need simplify the 
entry of the new users.

In some cases you need sacrifice something. For example, I love 
work on Visual Studio 7.0 (The old one without framework or 
.net), but they (irc guys) told me that I need move on to the 
free version of VS 2010 to use VisualD. Yes for me as new member 
this is a small sacrifice, but for you, the D1 guys, you should 
think for the benefits of D2 for all community, and not for what 
you will lost but what you will get from now on.

PS: Sorry my bad english.

Matt.
Dec 15 2011
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
On 12/15/11 11:44 AM, Mattbeui wrote:
 I am C programmer, but I had already did a little OO programming in
 Python and Delphi. So after look for a growth in my studies and enter
 definetly in OO programming, I found a video on youtube from Andrei
 Alexandrescu. And I got hooked since then.

 But that was just the beginning, until I discover that there are D1 and
 D2, tango and phobos Et cetera. Many options to get lost.

 I've had a great help from the d-guys at #d channel on IRC. But
 anyway... I think choosing one language is the right choice for
 everyone, mainly for the new users. And you need simplify the entry of
 the new users.

 In some cases you need sacrifice something. For example, I love work on
 Visual Studio 7.0 (The old one without framework or ..net), but they
 (irc guys) told me that I need move on to the free version of VS 2010 to
 use VisualD. Yes for me as new member this is a small sacrifice, but for
 you, the D1 guys, you should think for the benefits of D2 for all
 community, and not for what you will lost but what you will get from now
 on.

 PS: Sorry my bad english.

 Matt.

I quote all this post because I so strongly agree with it. Lately Walter and I have been increasingly thinking about the steps we need to take to improve adoption of D. Things have improved dramatically on the technical front, and we think going forward implementation quality and library coverage must remain the most important focus points. However, without a comprehensive PR strategy we risk at being all dressed up and nowhere to go. It's particularly important to work on it now, not later, because such things take months and years to catch on. The reason for the recent move, which Matt pointed very well, has to do with brand specialization. Years ago I've read a book recommended by a successful entrepreneur: "The 22 immutable laws of branding". By utter coincidence Walter mentioned he's reading it right now (which gives a good insight into our preoccupation). That book has quite a few interesting and somewhat non-intuitive notions (see e.g. a slide deck at http://www.slideshare.net/sjhus/22-immutable-laws-of-branding). Among these was "the law of contraction", the idea that a brand gets stronger as you narrow its focus. The book gives good examples: Starbucks specializing on coffee when one could find coffee virtually on every block in Seattle; FedEx competing with subsidized postal office but specializing in overnight delivery; Colgate winning the "toothpaste war" of the 70s with fewer, not more, offerings than Procter & Gamble; and more. We need to contract D's brand. People who consider D need to contemplate one crisp and coherent offer. Andrei
Dec 15 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/15/2011 4:18 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
 People who consider D need to contemplate one
 crisp and coherent offer.

Right. And we make D2 work or we fail completely.
Dec 15 2011
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 12/15/2011 11:04 PM, Gour wrote:
 On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 16:42:26 -0800
 Walter Bright<newshound2 digitalmars.com>  wrote:

 Right. And we make D2 work or we fail completely.

Please, make it work!

I have every intention to!
Dec 16 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
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On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 17:52:48 -0600
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 It is reasonable to expect that people with an interest in D have had
 all chances to see it and sufficient channels to chime in.

Sure. It is unreasonable that someone should knock on every D1 user out here, asking about their opinion. The project is open-source, there are no paying customers buying D1 support, so pls. move and spare (electronic) ink. I'm not favoring democracy, but competency...Let those who know better decide and let me do that what I can the best. Sincerely, Gour --=20 Never was there a time when I did not exist,=20 nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future=20 shall any of us cease to be. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
Dec 15 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
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On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 16:42:26 -0800
Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 Right. And we make D2 work or we fail completely.

Please, make it work! Sincerely, Gour --=20 As a strong wind sweeps away a boat on the water,=20 even one of the roaming senses on which the mind=20 focuses can carry away a man's intelligence. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
Dec 15 2011
prev sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
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On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 18:18:24 -0600
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:

 We need to contract D's brand. People who consider D need to
 contemplate one crisp and coherent offer.

Mine would be to write general-purpose multi-platform GUI application, but it seems it's dependant on other offerings. Moreover, I'll help/work on some GUI bindings and build-tool support (either/both pushing Cmake & premake upstream). Sincerely, Gour --=20 But a person free from all attachment and aversion and able=20 to control his senses through regulative principles of=20 freedom can obtain the complete mercy of the Lord. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
Dec 15 2011