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digitalmars.D - Community Rant

reply Jonathan Shamir <jonathan weka.io> writes:
https://dlang.org/htod.html

I click download and get an exe!

And in the bugs section:
No linux version.

I'll start with the productive part. If anyone can point me out 
to the sources of htod I would love to compile for linux + osx. 
Any task seems more attractive to me than manually converting a 
1000 line header to D.

I'm a D lover and advocate. I actually get a salary writing D 
code for a cutting-edge startup.

But lets be honest. If I was just interested to learn about this 
"modern system programming language" that is C++ done right, I 
would dismiss D very quickly. We need to get together as a 
community and rethink your priorities, because with problems like 
this we're making it very hard for newcomers to trust in this 
very poorly adapted language.

Programming tools used by day to day programmers should be a 
priority. Because everyone expects valgrind to work.

The standard library should be a priority. It's far from complete 
(hopefully my company will contribute in this respect in the near 
future).

The DUB package repository is horrible! More often than not, the 
packages are so poorly written I end up just writing my own 
implementation. Adding the ability to "rate" packages would go a 
long way in improving the situation.

I understand hacking the frontend is way more interesting to most 
of the community. But if we don't find the time to improve on our 
visibility and language maturity, D will never get the attention 
it deserves.

P.S. I don't know you guys (except Ali and Andrei which I had the 
honor to meet). I don't follow the forums. I'm sure you often 
speak about these topics here. So - if I offended anyone know 
it's not personal (I don't know who you are). I just want to 
share my impressions and experience as an actual day to day D 
user.
Aug 22
next sibling parent reply ixid <adamsibson gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 at 15:14:33 UTC, Jonathan Shamir wrote:
 various.
Out of interest did you pick up D before or after joining the start up? If before did you introduce D to them or were they already using it?
Aug 22
next sibling parent Jonathan Shamir <jonathan weka.io> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 at 15:24:54 UTC, ixid wrote:
 On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 at 15:14:33 UTC, Jonathan Shamir 
 wrote:
 various.
Out of interest did you pick up D before or after joining the start up? If before did you introduce D to them or were they already using it?
I work at weka.io. I learned D at weka, same as most of our workers (including the founders that looked for a powerful system programming language).
Aug 22
prev sibling parent reply =?UTF-8?Q?Ali_=c3=87ehreli?= <acehreli yahoo.com> writes:
On 08/22/2017 08:24 AM, ixid wrote:
 On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 at 15:14:33 UTC, Jonathan Shamir wrote:
 various.
Out of interest did you pick up D before or after joining the start up? If before did you introduce D to them or were they already using it?
Weka uses D after their CTO Liran's evaluation of a number of programming languages. Liran explains why he chose D and why he still thinks D was the right choice in his a couple of DConf talks. I worked at Weka for a while where I met many wonderful people like Jonathan. Although they were being "forced" to use D, nobody was seriously complaining. :) Now I work with an ex-Weka employee as an ex-Weka employee myself. That other person insisted that he should use D in his piece of the product. Sanity exists... ;) Ali
Aug 23
parent XavierAP <n3minis-git yahoo.es> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 August 2017 at 18:20:19 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
 Weka uses D after their CTO Liran's evaluation of a number of 
 programming languages. Liran explains why he chose D and why he 
 still thinks D was the right choice in his a couple of DConf 
 talks.

 I worked at Weka for a while where I met many wonderful people 
 like Jonathan. Although they were being "forced" to use D, 
 nobody was seriously complaining. :)

 Now I work with an ex-Weka employee as an ex-Weka employee 
 myself. That other person insisted that he should use D in his 
 piece of the product. Sanity exists... ;)
It's great news that such a company with such technology is building it on top of D :) Too bad D doesn't get the free publicity from being in the "technology providers" listing :p only big sexy industry names there...
Aug 24
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
Other possibilities can be dstep or cpp2d from visuald project. 
Though don't know if the latter can work on linux.
Aug 22
parent Jonathan Shamir <jonathan weka.io> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 at 15:48:17 UTC, Kagamin wrote:
 Other possibilities can be dstep or cpp2d from visuald project. 
 Though don't know if the latter can work on linux.
So I guess someone should pick one and put it on the site. And make sure the source code is available. Having a link to a broken unusable utility on the main language website looks bad, to say the least.
Aug 22
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Tuesday, August 22, 2017 15:14:33 Jonathan Shamir via Digitalmars-d 
wrote:
 https://dlang.org/htod.html

 I click download and get an exe!

 And in the bugs section:
 No linux version.

 I'll start with the productive part. If anyone can point me out
 to the sources of htod I would love to compile for linux + osx.
 Any task seems more attractive to me than manually converting a
 1000 line header to D.
From what I recall, it works pretty poorly anyway. As unpleasant as it may
seem, the only way that I'd really consider converting a C header file would be by hand. If you want an automated solution though, dstep is probably the better way to go. http://code.dlang.org/packages/dstep I'm not sure tha anyone has touched htod in years. dstep certainly will have issues (as will any automated solution), but I believe that it's better maintained and would expect it to do a better job.
 The DUB package repository is horrible! More often than not, the
 packages are so poorly written I end up just writing my own
 implementation.
Well, that depends entirely on the individual package maintainers. At least there's actually a place to go find such projects now. It used to be that there really wasn't a good place to go find any D libraries, and there weren't very many around. So, while the situation may not be ideal and could certainly use some improvement, it has improved considerably in recent years.
 Adding the ability to "rate" packages would go a
 long way in improving the situation.
It's been brought up before, and I expect that it will happen at some point. But it's the kind of thing that not many folks want to work on, so it's likely to suffer. It's probably the sort of thing where it would make sense for the dlang foundation to pay someone to do that now that they're able to do that at least occassionally. Someone would probably still have to show interest in doing the work though.
 I understand hacking the frontend is way more interesting to most
 of the community. But if we don't find the time to improve on our
 visibility and language maturity, D will never get the attention
 it deserves.
Honestly, I think that the library gets more attention than the compiler. But in general, what gets done is what the person doing the work wants done regardless of whether that's the best thing to be doing for the community as a whole, and that's often how it goes with open source projects. Certainly, if you're looking for large additions to the standard library, that requires quite a big commitment in terms of time and effort to get it through the Phobos review process, and it seems that most folks these days simply don't want to do that. They'd rather just put their code up on code.dlang.org. A lot of small stuff does get done to Phobos all the time though. And if you compare what D's standard library has to what C++'s standard library has, D really doesn't look that bad. It has a lot of stuff that C++ doesn't. But there are some areas that C++ does better that we need to improve upon (e.g. containers - though supposedly Andrei and/or is supervising one of his students on them; they'd made some progress that they talked about at the last dconf, but whatever they're up to hasn't matured enough to make it into Phobos yet). If you're looking to have the amount of stuff that a language like Java or C# has in their standard libraries though, I think that you're forever going to be disappointed. There simply isn't enough manpower for that to happen, and it would likely require folks being paid fulltime to work on a lot of it, and that certainly isn't happening. Almost all of what gets done for the compiler and standard libraries is what folks are doing in their free time. - Jonathan M Davis
Aug 22
prev sibling next sibling parent Guillaume Piolat <contact spam.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 at 15:14:33 UTC, Jonathan Shamir wrote:
 The DUB package repository is horrible! More often than not, 
 the packages are so poorly written I end up just writing my own 
 implementation. Adding the ability to "rate" packages would go 
 a long way in improving the situation.
+1 There are lots of hidden gems in code.dlang.org and (maybe) some metrics to consider to measure relevance: frequency of tags/commits, number of contributors, Github stars or forks, number of dependent packages, download count per week...
Aug 22
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 8/22/2017 8:14 AM, Jonathan Shamir wrote:
 https://dlang.org/htod.html
 
 I click download and get an exe!
 
 And in the bugs section:
 No linux version.
 
 I'll start with the productive part. If anyone can point me out to the sources 
 of htod I would love to compile for linux + osx. Any task seems more
attractive 
 to me than manually converting a 1000 line header to D.
You're right about htod, and it's on me. It's built out of the DMC++ front end. I haven't gotten around yet to releasing it as open source. The second problem is the DMC++ front end is tuned to deal with Windows compiler extensions, not Linux compiler extensions. So compiling it and running it on Linux will fail because every non-trivial C header file writer is unable to resist using every extension. There's also the gcc problem with its reliance on many hundreds (!) of predefined macros that are turned on/off by various gcc compiler switches. It's a madhouse. And, of course, every gcc on every platform has a different set of these. The situation was so bad that when I developed Warp (a fast C preprocessor) I left the predefined list up to the user to load from a special file. gcc on Ubuntu has 240 predefined macros when using the default switches. Who knows what the full list actually is. gcc -dM -E - </dev/null will print the list. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2224334/gcc-dump-preprocessor-defines
Aug 22
next sibling parent reply 12345swordy <alexanderheistermann gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 at 17:15:27 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 8/22/2017 8:14 AM, Jonathan Shamir wrote:
 [...]
You're right about htod, and it's on me. It's built out of the DMC++ front end. I haven't gotten around yet to releasing it as open source. [...]
Use Clang frontend?
Aug 22
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2017-08-22 19:47, 12345swordy wrote:

 Use Clang frontend?
DStep [1] is doing that. It handles both GCC and Microsoft extensions. [1] https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/dstep -- /Jacob Carlborg
Aug 22
parent reply 12345swordy <alexanderheistermann gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 at 19:55:53 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2017-08-22 19:47, 12345swordy wrote:

 Use Clang frontend?
DStep [1] is doing that. It handles both GCC and Microsoft extensions. [1] https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/dstep
"Doesn't translate C++ at all" That's very disappointing. IMO, it should at least aim for the c++ 11 feature via using clang.
Aug 23
next sibling parent reply jmh530 <john.michael.hall gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 August 2017 at 13:25:20 UTC, 12345swordy wrote:
 "Doesn't translate C++ at all"

 That's very disappointing. IMO, it should at least aim for the 
 c++ 11 feature via using clang.
Very disappointing? It's not trivial to call C++ from another language.
Aug 23
parent 12345swordy <alexanderheistermann gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 August 2017 at 14:12:55 UTC, jmh530 wrote:
 On Wednesday, 23 August 2017 at 13:25:20 UTC, 12345swordy wrote:
 "Doesn't translate C++ at all"

 That's very disappointing. IMO, it should at least aim for the 
 c++ 11 feature via using clang.
Very disappointing?
Yes I find it disappointing. Does my disappointment bother you?
Aug 23
prev sibling next sibling parent reply lobo <swamplobo gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 August 2017 at 13:25:20 UTC, 12345swordy wrote:
 On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 at 19:55:53 UTC, Jacob Carlborg 
 wrote:
 On 2017-08-22 19:47, 12345swordy wrote:

 Use Clang frontend?
DStep [1] is doing that. It handles both GCC and Microsoft extensions. [1] https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/dstep
"Doesn't translate C++ at all" That's very disappointing. IMO, it should at least aim for the c++ 11 feature via using clang.
Do you know another language or tool that can call C++ natively? I'm looking for native C++ interop either built in or via tooling. bye, lobo
Aug 23
parent reply Timothee Cour via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
 Do you know another language or tool that can call C++ natively?
nim: it supports both targetting C++ (as well as C or javascript) and also calling C++ via foreign function interface, eg here are some links: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/wiki/Playing-with-CPP--VTABLE-from-Nim https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29526958/wrapping-nested-templated-types-in-nim https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/1056 for D, there's a project to support full C++ natively using clang library is calypso, unfortunalty I haven't been able to use it, either from OSX or ubuntu: it's blocked by https://github.com/Syniurge/Calypso/issues/41, hoping someone can help here! On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 3:57 PM, lobo via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:
 On Wednesday, 23 August 2017 at 13:25:20 UTC, 12345swordy wrote:
 On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 at 19:55:53 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2017-08-22 19:47, 12345swordy wrote:

 Use Clang frontend?
DStep [1] is doing that. It handles both GCC and Microsoft extensions. [1] https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/dstep
"Doesn't translate C++ at all" That's very disappointing. IMO, it should at least aim for the c++ 11 feature via using clang.
Do you know another language or tool that can call C++ natively? I'm looking for native C++ interop either built in or via tooling. bye, lobo
Aug 23
parent reply lobo <swamp.lobo gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 August 2017 at 01:51:25 UTC, Timothee Cour wrote:
 [...]
nim: it supports both targetting C++ (as well as C or javascript) and also calling C++ via foreign function interface, eg here are some links: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/wiki/Playing-with-CPP--VTABLE-from-Nim https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29526958/wrapping-nested-templated-types-in-nim https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/1056 for D, there's a project to support full C++ natively using clang library is calypso, unfortunalty I haven't been able to use it, either from OSX or ubuntu: it's blocked by https://github.com/Syniurge/Calypso/issues/41, hoping someone can help here! On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 3:57 PM, lobo via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:
 [...]
Thanks, I'll revisit Nim. As a team we're testing new languages as a larger plan to switch from C++. Nim we struck off 6 months ago because we found it not quite production ready. bye, lobo
Aug 23
parent reply Timothee Cour via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 10:38 PM, lobo via Digitalmars-d
<digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 August 2017 at 01:51:25 UTC, Timothee Cour wrote:
 [...]
nim: it supports both targetting C++ (as well as C or javascript) and also calling C++ via foreign function interface, eg here are some links: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/wiki/Playing-with-CPP--VTABLE-from-Nim https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29526958/wrapping-nested-templated-types-in-nim https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/1056 for D, there's a project to support full C++ natively using clang library is calypso, unfortunalty I haven't been able to use it, either from OSX or ubuntu: it's blocked by https://github.com/Syniurge/Calypso/issues/41, hoping someone can help here! On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 3:57 PM, lobo via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:
 [...]
Thanks, I'll revisit Nim. As a team we're testing new languages as a larger plan to switch from C++. Nim we struck off 6 months ago because we found it not quite production ready. bye, lobo
Would love to hear more about your reasoning as I'm also occasionally re-visiting it, do you have any writeup?
Aug 23
parent reply lobo <swamp.lobo gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 August 2017 at 05:56:02 UTC, Timothee Cour wrote:
 On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 10:38 PM, lobo via Digitalmars-d 
 <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:
 On Thursday, 24 August 2017 at 01:51:25 UTC, Timothee Cour 
 wrote:
 [...]
nim: it supports both targetting C++ (as well as C or javascript) and also calling C++ via foreign function interface, eg here are some links: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/wiki/Playing-with-CPP--VTABLE-from-Nim https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29526958/wrapping-nested-te plated-types-in-nim https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/1056 for D, there's a project to support full C++ natively using clang library is calypso, unfortunalty I haven't been able to use it, either from OSX or ubuntu: it's blocked by https://github.com/Syniurge/Calypso/issues/41, hoping someone can help here! On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 3:57 PM, lobo via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> wrote:
 [...]
Thanks, I'll revisit Nim. As a team we're testing new languages as a larger plan to switch from C++. Nim we struck off 6 months ago because we found it not quite production ready. bye, lobo
Would love to hear more about your reasoning as I'm also occasionally re-visiting it, do you have any writeup?
No write up I can release at this stage because there are some business confidential aspects in the final report. We're ~30 Python, Java and C++ programmers. Our testing involved 1 developer month in each language implementing scripts to parse into data, a basic library read and interpolate data on a 3D regular grid, a small GUI application to display regular grids and tool chain testing where we produced a metric tonne of autogenerated code to see how well we could integrate into our existing build infrastructure and what build times would be like. From memory Nim had four main issues: a) 4 compiler ICEs. Our metric was >2 during testing and it was out, so this alone blew Nim away; we were deliberately harsh. D had 1 ICE that was a known issue with core team member comments on the bug report. b) Nim compilation was slower than other languages (we count the C compilation as part of the same package) c) Our Python devs found Nim was not Pythonic enough compared to other languages for hack n' slash quick scripts while keeping it maintainable and clean. d) Our developers (Python, Java and C++ people) preferred other language syntax bye, lobo
Aug 24
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 8/24/2017 12:53 AM, lobo wrote:
  D had 1 ICE that was a known
 issue with core team member comments on the bug report.
What's the bugzilla issue number?
Aug 24
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2017-08-23 15:25, 12345swordy wrote:

 "Doesn't translate C++ at all"
 
 That's very disappointing. IMO, it should at least aim for the c++ 11 
 feature via using clang.
Pull requests are welcome :). BTW, to my knowledge D doesn't support any features added after C++98/03. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Aug 24
parent reply 12345swordy <alexanderheistermann gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 August 2017 at 08:11:52 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2017-08-23 15:25, 12345swordy wrote:

 "Doesn't translate C++ at all"
 
 That's very disappointing. IMO, it should at least aim for the 
 c++ 11 feature via using clang.
Pull requests are welcome :). BTW, to my knowledge D doesn't support any features added after C++98/03.
They have plans to add c++ support?
Aug 24
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2017-08-24 17:02, 12345swordy wrote:

 They have plans to add c++ support?
D can already link with C++, but not all features are supported. Like lambdas, for example, are not supported. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Aug 24
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 8/24/2017 12:08 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 D can already link with C++, but not all features are supported. Like lambdas, 
 for example, are not supported.
I have no idea how that would even work. Since lambdas are nested functions, how would one write one in D and have it nested inside C++ code?
Aug 24
next sibling parent Biotronic <simen.kjaras gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 August 2017 at 00:43:56 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 8/24/2017 12:08 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 D can already link with C++, but not all features are 
 supported. Like lambdas, for example, are not supported.
I have no idea how that would even work. Since lambdas are nested functions, how would one write one in D and have it nested inside C++ code?
Like this: // C++ void foo(std::function<char*(int)> fn) { printf("%s", fn(3)); } // D extern(C++) void foo(char* delegate(int) fn); -- Biotronic
Aug 24
prev sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2017-08-25 02:43, Walter Bright wrote:

 I have no idea how that would even work. Since lambdas are nested 
 functions, how would one write one in D and have it nested inside C++ code?
I thought C++ lambdas were implemented as structs with the call operator overloaded. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Aug 25
next sibling parent reply Atila Neves <atila.neves gmail.com> writes:
On Friday, 25 August 2017 at 08:31:57 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2017-08-25 02:43, Walter Bright wrote:

 I have no idea how that would even work. Since lambdas are 
 nested functions, how would one write one in D and have it 
 nested inside C++ code?
I thought C++ lambdas were implemented as structs with the call operator overloaded.
Correct, the lambda syntax is just syntatic sugar. But how would D support that? The name of the compiler-generated struct is known only to the compiler, there'd be no way to link to the code. Atila
Aug 25
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2017-08-25 13:07, Atila Neves wrote:

 Correct, the lambda syntax is just syntatic sugar. But how would D 
 support that? The name of the compiler-generated struct is known only to 
 the compiler, there'd be no way to link to the code.
I don't know. I haven't suggested this should be implemented. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Aug 25
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 8/25/2017 1:31 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2017-08-25 02:43, Walter Bright wrote:
 
 I have no idea how that would even work. Since lambdas are nested functions, 
 how would one write one in D and have it nested inside C++ code?
I thought C++ lambdas were implemented as structs with the call operator overloaded.
Right, but please show me an example of how that might be used.
Aug 25
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2017-08-25 16:58, Walter Bright wrote:

 Right, but please show me an example of how that might be used.
I've never suggested that this should be implemented. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Aug 27
prev sibling parent reply 12345swordy <alexanderheistermann gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday, 24 August 2017 at 19:08:04 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2017-08-24 17:02, 12345swordy wrote:

 They have plans to add c++ support?
D can already link with C++, but not all features are supported. Like lambdas, for example, are not supported.
I am not asking that, I'm asking regarding the project mention earlier.
Aug 26
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2017-08-26 23:32, 12345swordy wrote:

 I am not asking that, I'm asking regarding the project mention earlier.
Adding support for C++ to DStep is a long term goal, yes. But the compiler still needs to support those features. Unless DStep is going to generate C wrappers, which I would like to avoid. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Aug 27
parent reply 12345swordy <alexanderheistermann gmail.com> writes:
On Monday, 28 August 2017 at 06:30:53 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2017-08-26 23:32, 12345swordy wrote:

 I am not asking that, I'm asking regarding the project mention 
 earlier.
Adding support for C++ to DStep is a long term goal, yes. But the compiler still needs to support those features. Unless DStep is going to generate C wrappers, which I would like to avoid.
What compiler are you referring to? Clang? LDC? DMD?
Aug 28
parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2017-08-28 20:24, 12345swordy wrote:

 What compiler are you referring to? Clang? LDC? DMD?
The D compilers, DMD and LDC. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Aug 28
prev sibling next sibling parent Jonathan Shamir <jonathan weka.io> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 at 17:15:27 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

 You're right about htod, and it's on me. It's built out of the 
 DMC++ front end. I haven't gotten around yet to releasing it as 
 open source.
We can discuss possible ways of implementing htod. Instead, I'd rather discuss how we can make D more approachable and attractive to people thinking of picking up the language. In that respect, as far as htod goes, I think it should be removed from the site (it could still be available online). D can't have an official command line utility that doesn't work. Small steps.
Aug 22
prev sibling parent reply Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 8/22/17 1:15 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 8/22/2017 8:14 AM, Jonathan Shamir wrote:
 https://dlang.org/htod.html

 I click download and get an exe!

 And in the bugs section:
 No linux version.

 I'll start with the productive part. If anyone can point me out to the 
 sources of htod I would love to compile for linux + osx. Any task 
 seems more attractive to me than manually converting a 1000 line 
 header to D.
You're right about htod, and it's on me. It's built out of the DMC++ front end. I haven't gotten around yet to releasing it as open source.
I downloaded it. The exe is last modified April 28, 2010, corresponding with DMD version 2.044. This can't possibly produce valid D headers for 2.075.1. I think it should be either updated or removed from the web site. -Steve
Aug 22
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 8/22/2017 11:23 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I downloaded it. The exe is last modified April 28, 2010, corresponding with
DMD 
 version 2.044.
 
 This can't possibly produce valid D headers for 2.075.1. I think it should be 
 either updated or removed from the web site.
It doesn't correspond to the D version, it corresponds to the C compiler version, which is stable.
Aug 22
parent reply Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On 8/22/17 5:17 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 8/22/2017 11:23 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I downloaded it. The exe is last modified April 28, 2010, 
 corresponding with DMD version 2.044.

 This can't possibly produce valid D headers for 2.075.1. I think it 
 should be either updated or removed from the web site.
It doesn't correspond to the D version, it corresponds to the C compiler version, which is stable.
But it is generating D code, no? -Steve
Aug 22
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 8/22/2017 2:50 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 On 8/22/17 5:17 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 8/22/2017 11:23 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 I downloaded it. The exe is last modified April 28, 2010, corresponding with 
 DMD version 2.044.

 This can't possibly produce valid D headers for 2.075.1. I think it should be 
 either updated or removed from the web site.
It doesn't correspond to the D version, it corresponds to the C compiler version, which is stable.
But it is generating D code, no?
Sure. And the C subset of D has been very stable, too.
Aug 22
parent Sebastiaan Koppe <mail skoppe.eu> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 at 22:50:46 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 8/22/2017 2:50 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
 But it is generating D code, no?
Sure. And the C subset of D has been very stable, too.
Used the tool 2 years ago. Worked like a charm.
Aug 23
prev sibling next sibling parent =?UTF-8?Q?S=c3=b6nke_Ludwig?= <sludwig+d outerproduct.org> writes:
Am 22.08.2017 um 17:14 schrieb Jonathan Shamir:
 The DUB package repository is horrible! More often than not, the 
 packages are so poorly written I end up just writing my own 
 implementation. Adding the ability to "rate" packages would go a long 
 way in improving the situation.
We are working on this point. There will be some form of popularity and quality measures, as well as top lists to discover notable projects.
Aug 22
prev sibling next sibling parent Ecstatic Coder <ecstatic.coder gmail.com> writes:
 But lets be honest. If I was just interested to learn about 
 this "modern system programming language" that is C++ done 
 right, I would dismiss D very quickly. We need to get together 
 as a community and rethink your priorities, because with 
 problems like this we're making it very hard for newcomers to 
 trust in this very poorly adapted language.

 Programming tools used by day to day programmers should be a 
 priority. Because everyone expects valgrind to work.

 The standard library should be a priority. It's far from 
 complete (hopefully my company will contribute in this respect 
 in the near future).

 The DUB package repository is horrible! More often than not, 
 the packages are so poorly written I end up just writing my own 
 implementation. Adding the ability to "rate" packages would go 
 a long way in improving the situation.

 I understand hacking the frontend is way more interesting to 
 most of the community. But if we don't find the time to improve 
 on our visibility and language maturity, D will never get the 
 attention it deserves.
+1
Aug 23
prev sibling parent reply Mark <smarksc gmail.com> writes:
On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 at 15:14:33 UTC, Jonathan Shamir wrote:
 [...]

 But lets be honest. If I was just interested to learn about 
 this "modern system programming language" that is C++ done 
 right, I would dismiss D very quickly. We need to get together 
 as a community and rethink your priorities, because with 
 problems like this we're making it very hard for newcomers to 
 trust in this very poorly adapted language.

 Programming tools used by day to day programmers should be a 
 priority. Because everyone expects valgrind to work.

 [...]
This kind of criticism comes up fairly often in the forums, maybe once every few weeks. I can link to the recent threads on the matter, but I'm sure you can make an educated guess about the responses therein. The gist of it, in my view, is that: "[Making] D more approachable and attractive to people thinking of picking up the language." just isn't a high priority right now.
Aug 23
next sibling parent reply Brad Roberts via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On 8/23/2017 3:58 PM, Mark via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 at 15:14:33 UTC, Jonathan Shamir wrote:
 [...]

 But lets be honest. If I was just interested to learn about this 
 "modern system programming language" that is C++ done right, I would 
 dismiss D very quickly. We need to get together as a community and 
 rethink your priorities, because with problems like this we're making 
 it very hard for newcomers to trust in this very poorly adapted language.

 Programming tools used by day to day programmers should be a priority. 
 Because everyone expects valgrind to work.

 [...]
This kind of criticism comes up fairly often in the forums, maybe once every few weeks. I can link to the recent threads on the matter, but I'm sure you can make an educated guess about the responses therein. The gist of it, in my view, is that: "[Making] D more approachable and attractive to people thinking of picking up the language." just isn't a high priority right now.
That's one way to look at it. Another, slightly more accurate and nuanced version is that there are many areas for improvement, and those that are doing work to improve things are doing them in areas they believe are important and useful for their work. That there's not more in the area <X>, that you (and others) believe is important, merely shows that the number that believe <X> is important enough to work on right now is close to zero. That doesn't mean that <X> isn't also important, just that it's not at the top of the priority list for those getting things done. Convince someone that <X> is higher priority than the things they're working on then you might see some movement on those fronts. Or convince yourself that it's important enough to engage in yourself. This isn't really a community level issue so much as a very personal level issue. It's not sufficient for something to be declared a community level priority if no one at the personal level is interested enough to contribute their time.
Aug 23
parent Mark <smarksc gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday, 23 August 2017 at 23:27:22 UTC, Brad Roberts wrote:
 On 8/23/2017 3:58 PM, Mark via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 
 This kind of criticism comes up fairly often in the forums, 
 maybe once every few weeks. I can link to the recent threads 
 on the matter, but I'm sure you can make an educated guess 
 about the responses therein. The gist of it, in my view, is 
 that:
 
 "[Making] D more approachable and attractive to people 
 thinking of picking up the language."
 
 just isn't a high priority right now.
That's one way to look at it. Another, slightly more accurate and nuanced version is that there are many areas for improvement, and those that are doing work to improve things are doing them in areas they believe are important and useful for their work. That there's not more in the area <X>, that you (and others) believe is important, merely shows that the number that believe <X> is important enough to work on right now is close to zero. That doesn't mean that <X> isn't also important, just that it's not at the top of the priority list for those getting things done. Convince someone that <X> is higher priority than the things they're working on then you might see some movement on those fronts. Or convince yourself that it's important enough to engage in yourself. This isn't really a community level issue so much as a very personal level issue. It's not sufficient for something to be declared a community level priority if no one at the personal level is interested enough to contribute their time.
That's the longer version of what I meant to say. I don't think the concept of a community level priority has any meaning in this context- there is no centralized decision making mechanism in the D community. The "priority" I was referring to in my previous post is just a simple average of the personal priorities of language contributors.
Aug 24
prev sibling parent Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d puremagic.com> writes:
On Wednesday, August 23, 2017 16:27:22 Brad Roberts via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 On 8/23/2017 3:58 PM, Mark via Digitalmars-d wrote:
 On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 at 15:14:33 UTC, Jonathan Shamir wrote:
 [...]

 But lets be honest. If I was just interested to learn about this
 "modern system programming language" that is C++ done right, I would
 dismiss D very quickly. We need to get together as a community and
 rethink your priorities, because with problems like this we're making
 it very hard for newcomers to trust in this very poorly adapted
 language.

 Programming tools used by day to day programmers should be a priority.
 Because everyone expects valgrind to work.

 [...]
This kind of criticism comes up fairly often in the forums, maybe once every few weeks. I can link to the recent threads on the matter, but I'm sure you can make an educated guess about the responses therein. The gist of it, in my view, is that: "[Making] D more approachable and attractive to people thinking of picking up the language." just isn't a high priority right now.
That's one way to look at it. Another, slightly more accurate and nuanced version is that there are many areas for improvement, and those that are doing work to improve things are doing them in areas they believe are important and useful for their work. That there's not more in the area <X>, that you (and others) believe is important, merely shows that the number that believe <X> is important enough to work on right now is close to zero. That doesn't mean that <X> isn't also important, just that it's not at the top of the priority list for those getting things done. Convince someone that <X> is higher priority than the things they're working on then you might see some movement on those fronts. Or convince yourself that it's important enough to engage in yourself. This isn't really a community level issue so much as a very personal level issue. It's not sufficient for something to be declared a community level priority if no one at the personal level is interested enough to contribute their time.
Well said. - Jonathan M Davis
Aug 24