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digitalmars.D - A special treat

reply Steve Teale <steve.teale britseyeview.com> writes:
When D2 is 'frozen', as a special treat would it be possible for it to be 
able to generate object files that could be converted into shared 
libraries, and for Phobos to be a shared library to support same.

I have tried every which way I can think of to create shared libraries 
using D. The closest I have come is with the old 1.030 GDC, and even with 
that there are problems. I've tried to describe the current situation in 
some detail on the blog section of my <a href="http://
www.britseyeview.com/GDC-newbie.html">GDC-newbie page</a>. It is too long 
to post on the newsgroup.

The inability to do this is a real show-stopper for D on Linux, and 
unless things have got better since I last tried, the same can be said 
for Windows DLLs.

Please!
Steve
Feb 09 2010
next sibling parent reply Clemens <eriatarka84 gmail.com> writes:
Steve Teale Wrote:


 When D2 is 'frozen', as a special treat would it be possible for it to be 
 able to generate object files that could be converted into shared 
 libraries, and for Phobos to be a shared library to support same.
 
 I have tried every which way I can think of to create shared libraries 
 using D. The closest I have come is with the old 1.030 GDC, and even with 
 that there are problems. I've tried to describe the current situation in 
 some detail on the blog section of my <a href="http://
 www.britseyeview.com/GDC-newbie.html">GDC-newbie page</a>. It is too long 
 to post on the newsgroup.
 
 The inability to do this is a real show-stopper for D on Linux, and 
 unless things have got better since I last tried, the same can be said 
 for Windows DLLs.
 
 Please!
 Steve



Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but have you looked at DDL?

http://www.dsource.org/projects/ddl/

Clemens
Feb 09 2010
parent Steve Teale <steve.teale britseyeview.com> writes:
O>> Please!

 Steve



 Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but have you looked at DDL?
 
 http://www.dsource.org/projects/ddl/
 
 Clemens



D1/Tango/not maintained/awful or no documentation - what more can I say?

Thanks
Steve
Feb 09 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:53:47 -0500, Steve Teale  
<steve.teale britseyeview.com> wrote:


 When D2 is 'frozen', as a special treat would it be possible for it to be
 able to generate object files that could be converted into shared
 libraries, and for Phobos to be a shared library to support same.

 I have tried every which way I can think of to create shared libraries
 using D. The closest I have come is with the old 1.030 GDC, and even with
 that there are problems. I've tried to describe the current situation in
 some detail on the blog section of my <a href="http://
 www.britseyeview.com/GDC-newbie.html">GDC-newbie page</a>. It is too long
 to post on the newsgroup.

 The inability to do this is a real show-stopper for D on Linux, and
 unless things have got better since I last tried, the same can be said
 for Windows DLLs.

 Please!



Many (including myself) have expressed the real requirement for shared  
libraries.  Sometimes the response is "oh who needs shared libraries  
anyways, there is so much memory in todays computers" and the other  
response is that "Windows DLLs suck, so we can't do it".

I agree it needs to be figured out before D is considered a viable  
professional language.  I don't think it's impossible, but someone just  
needs to spend the time.

Another new problem to pile on to Windows DLLs is the new requirement for  
default thread local storage.  See this bug that is very unlikely to get  
fixed (by Microsoft):

http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3342

So the tradeoff is, either use crappy TLS (using a function to look up  
global variables) or only support Windows Vista and later.  If Windows 7  
hadn't come out, I'd say requiring Vista is about as bad as not having  
DLLs :)

-Steve
Feb 09 2010
parent reply Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> writes:
Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:53:47 -0500, Steve Teale 
 <steve.teale britseyeview.com> wrote:
 

 When D2 is 'frozen', as a special treat would it be possible for it to be
 able to generate object files that could be converted into shared
 libraries, and for Phobos to be a shared library to support same.

 I have tried every which way I can think of to create shared libraries
 using D. The closest I have come is with the old 1.030 GDC, and even with
 that there are problems. I've tried to describe the current situation in
 some detail on the blog section of my <a href="http://
 www.britseyeview.com/GDC-newbie.html">GDC-newbie page</a>. It is too long
 to post on the newsgroup.

 The inability to do this is a real show-stopper for D on Linux, and
 unless things have got better since I last tried, the same can be said
 for Windows DLLs.

 Please!



 Many (including myself) have expressed the real requirement for shared 
 libraries.  Sometimes the response is "oh who needs shared libraries 
 anyways, there is so much memory in todays computers" and the other 
 response is that "Windows DLLs suck, so we can't do it".
 
 I agree it needs to be figured out before D is considered a viable 
 professional language.  I don't think it's impossible, but someone just 
 needs to spend the time.
 
 Another new problem to pile on to Windows DLLs is the new requirement 
 for default thread local storage.  See this bug that is very unlikely to 
 get fixed (by Microsoft):
 
 http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3342
 
 So the tradeoff is, either use crappy TLS (using a function to look up 
 global variables) or only support Windows Vista and later.  If Windows 7 
 hadn't come out, I'd say requiring Vista is about as bad as not having 
 DLLs :)
 
 -Steve



A lot of Phobos consists of templates, which would be difficult to put 
in a shared library.

Andrei
Feb 09 2010
next sibling parent "Craig Black" <cblack ara.com> writes:
"Andrei Alexandrescu" <SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote in message 
news:hks6qm$26r3$1 digitalmars.com...

 Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:53:47 -0500, Steve Teale 
 <steve.teale britseyeview.com> wrote:


 When D2 is 'frozen', as a special treat would it be possible for it to 
 be
 able to generate object files that could be converted into shared
 libraries, and for Phobos to be a shared library to support same.

 I have tried every which way I can think of to create shared libraries
 using D. The closest I have come is with the old 1.030 GDC, and even 
 with
 that there are problems. I've tried to describe the current situation in
 some detail on the blog section of my <a href="http://
 www.britseyeview.com/GDC-newbie.html">GDC-newbie page</a>. It is too 
 long
 to post on the newsgroup.

 The inability to do this is a real show-stopper for D on Linux, and
 unless things have got better since I last tried, the same can be said
 for Windows DLLs.

 Please!



 Many (including myself) have expressed the real requirement for shared 
 libraries.  Sometimes the response is "oh who needs shared libraries 
 anyways, there is so much memory in todays computers" and the other 
 response is that "Windows DLLs suck, so we can't do it".

 I agree it needs to be figured out before D is considered a viable 
 professional language.  I don't think it's impossible, but someone just 
 needs to spend the time.

 Another new problem to pile on to Windows DLLs is the new requirement for 
 default thread local storage.  See this bug that is very unlikely to get 
 fixed (by Microsoft):

 http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3342

 So the tradeoff is, either use crappy TLS (using a function to look up 
 global variables) or only support Windows Vista and later.  If Windows 7 
 hadn't come out, I'd say requiring Vista is about as bad as not having 
 DLLs :)

 -Steve



 A lot of Phobos consists of templates, which would be difficult to put in 
 a shared library.

 Andrei



Sure but I bet a lot of it doesn't consist of templates.  Even with highly 
templated code, there is still a lot to be gained from this IMO.

-Craig
Feb 09 2010
prev sibling parent Justin Johansson <no spam.com> writes:
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

 Many (including myself) have expressed the real requirement for shared 
 libraries.  Sometimes the response is "oh who needs shared libraries 
 anyways, there is so much memory in todays computers" and the other 
 response is that "Windows DLLs suck, so we can't do it".

 I agree it needs to be figured out before D is considered a viable 
 professional language.  I don't think it's impossible, but someone 
 just needs to spend the time.

 Another new problem to pile on to Windows DLLs is the new requirement 
 for default thread local storage.  See this bug that is very unlikely 
 to get fixed (by Microsoft):

 http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3342

 So the tradeoff is, either use crappy TLS (using a function to look up 
 global variables) or only support Windows Vista and later.  If Windows 
 7 hadn't come out, I'd say requiring Vista is about as bad as not 
 having DLLs :)

 -Steve







 A lot of Phobos consists of templates, which would be difficult to put 
 in a shared library.
 Andrei



With respect, Andrei, that note is an irrelevant aside.  There are not
many applications or application libraries that consist solely of
templates.  Shared libraries are sometimes the only way you can extend
applications in Linux.  e.g. Apache server modules.  (No need to
mention FastCGI workaround).

Ditto Windows & DLL's.

Justin
Feb 09 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:42:46 -0500, Andrei Alexandrescu  
<SeeWebsiteForEmail erdani.org> wrote:


 Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:53:47 -0500, Steve Teale  
 <steve.teale britseyeview.com> wrote:


 When D2 is 'frozen', as a special treat would it be possible for it to  
 be
 able to generate object files that could be converted into shared
 libraries, and for Phobos to be a shared library to support same.

 I have tried every which way I can think of to create shared libraries
 using D. The closest I have come is with the old 1.030 GDC, and even  
 with
 that there are problems. I've tried to describe the current situation  
 in
 some detail on the blog section of my <a href="http://
 www.britseyeview.com/GDC-newbie.html">GDC-newbie page</a>. It is too  
 long
 to post on the newsgroup.

 The inability to do this is a real show-stopper for D on Linux, and
 unless things have got better since I last tried, the same can be said
 for Windows DLLs.

 Please!



 libraries.  Sometimes the response is "oh who needs shared libraries  
 anyways, there is so much memory in todays computers" and the other  
 response is that "Windows DLLs suck, so we can't do it".
  I agree it needs to be figured out before D is considered a viable  
 professional language.  I don't think it's impossible, but someone just  
 needs to spend the time.
  Another new problem to pile on to Windows DLLs is the new requirement  
 for default thread local storage.  See this bug that is very unlikely  
 to get fixed (by Microsoft):
  http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3342
  So the tradeoff is, either use crappy TLS (using a function to look up  
 global variables) or only support Windows Vista and later.  If Windows  
 7 hadn't come out, I'd say requiring Vista is about as bad as not  
 having DLLs :)
  -Steve



 A lot of Phobos consists of templates, which would be difficult to put  
 in a shared library.



There is druntime, all the typeinfos, and much of phobos' templates will  
likely be used in other parts of phobos.  For example, if an XML library  
is template based on the character width, but one part of phobos uses the  
xml library based on char (for properties or something), then  
instantiating that template with char in your program code will leave the  
char-generated version in the phobos dynamic lib.

The savings will be real.  Most templated code is used in similar ways and  
so those uses can be consolidated into one shared library.  It might even  
be worth pre-generating common templates even if they are not specifically  
used.

-Steve
Feb 09 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent Don <nospam nospam.com> writes:
Steve Teale wrote:

 When D2 is 'frozen', as a special treat would it be possible for it to be 
 able to generate object files that could be converted into shared 
 libraries, and for Phobos to be a shared library to support same.
 
 I have tried every which way I can think of to create shared libraries 
 using D. The closest I have come is with the old 1.030 GDC, and even with 
 that there are problems. I've tried to describe the current situation in 
 some detail on the blog section of my <a href="http://
 www.britseyeview.com/GDC-newbie.html">GDC-newbie page</a>. It is too long 
 to post on the newsgroup.
 
 The inability to do this is a real show-stopper for D on Linux, and 
 unless things have got better since I last tried, the same can be said 
 for Windows DLLs.
 
 Please!
 Steve



The inability to make Windows DLLs is, IMHO, the #1 show-stopper for D. 
It'll definitely get attention.
Feb 09 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Steve Teale wrote:

 The inability to do this is a real show-stopper for D on Linux, and 
 unless things have got better since I last tried, the same can be said 
 for Windows DLLs.



The dmd/samples/d/dserver.d is an example of a Windows DLL in D.
Feb 09 2010
next sibling parent reply "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:58:37 -0500, Walter Bright  
<newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 Steve Teale wrote:

 The inability to do this is a real show-stopper for D on Linux, and  
 unless things have got better since I last tried, the same can be said  
 for Windows DLLs.



 The dmd/samples/d/dserver.d is an example of a Windows DLL in D.



According to Don (haven't tried, because I don't have a windows box  
handy), any D2 DLL will fail, even an empty one because of  
http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3342

That aside, having to handle manual steps to ensure the runtime doesn't  
lose its mind is unacceptable.  It has to be handled without any manual  
runtime coding to be a viable solution.  DDL is not a solution, its a hack.

In other words, I should be able to flip a compiler switch to build a  
shared lib, and I shouldn't have to do anything special aside from  
exporting symbols.  This is the way it is in all other programming  
languages.

Until Phobos is a shared lib, I don't think we need to have any  
discussions about any existing solutions.  That is requirement number 1  
for saying D supports shared libs.

-Steve
Feb 09 2010
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:58:37 -0500, Walter Bright 
 <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:
 

 Steve Teale wrote:

 The inability to do this is a real show-stopper for D on Linux, and 
 unless things have got better since I last tried, the same can be 
 said for Windows DLLs.



 The dmd/samples/d/dserver.d is an example of a Windows DLL in D.



 According to Don (haven't tried, because I don't have a windows box 
 handy), any D2 DLL will fail, even an empty one because of 
 http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3342



It is a bad problem, but it doesn't apply to implicitly loaded DLLs, 
only dynamically loaded ones, and it also doesn't apply to Vista or 
Windows 7.



 That aside, having to handle manual steps to ensure the runtime doesn't 
 lose its mind is unacceptable.  It has to be handled without any manual 
 runtime coding to be a viable solution.  DDL is not a solution, its a hack.
 
 In other words, I should be able to flip a compiler switch to build a 
 shared lib, and I shouldn't have to do anything special aside from 
 exporting symbols.  This is the way it is in all other programming 
 languages.
 
 Until Phobos is a shared lib, I don't think we need to have any 
 discussions about any existing solutions.  That is requirement number 1 
 for saying D supports shared libs.



Shared libraries (on Linux) and Windows DLLs are very different things.

Phobos as a DLL is a different problem than creating DLLs with D. DLLs 
in D can be created that are statically linked with Phobos, and that can 
be accessed by any executable in any language.
Feb 09 2010
next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> writes:
Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 But implicitly loaded DLLs aren't supported by D!



Sure they are, see the program in dmd/samples/d



 Shared libraries (on Linux) and Windows DLLs are very different things.



 Yes, I agree they are two different problems to solve.  But to a 
 developer, they look the same.



They aren't the same, even to a developer, as they do different things 
and behave very differently.



 Phobos as a DLL is a different problem than creating DLLs with D. DLLs 
 in D can be created that are statically linked with Phobos, and that 
 can be accessed by any executable in any language.



 They can be accessed by another D program?  My understanding is that all 
 kinds of weird problems happen if you dynamically link two D programs 
 together.  I'm not speaking from first-hand experience, I may be wrong.



At a minimum, if you expose a C interface from your DLL, it can interact 
with any other DLL.



 It is very important that Phobos be a dynamic library and that you can 
 build dynamic libraries easily without manual manipulation of the 
 runtime.  If these two things are accomplished, then D can say it 
 supports dynamic libraries, not before.  Half ass support doesn't 
 count.



There's still a lot you can do with DLLs and D.
Feb 09 2010
prev sibling parent Justin Johansson <no spam.com> writes:
Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 It is very important that Phobos be a dynamic library and that you can 
 build dynamic libraries easily without manual manipulation of the 
 runtime.  If these two things are accomplished, then D can say it 
 supports dynamic libraries, not before.  Half ass support doesn't 
 count.  It's like saying a car has a cup holder because you can wedge 
 your cup between the seat and the e-brake.
 
 -Steve



I agree, Steve.  Years ago when I did Windows programming with MFC
(Microsoft Foundation Classes), I had a preference for statically
linking the MFC libraries with my app to avoid the DLL hell problem.
However it was, and still is, possible to dynamically link with MFC
DLL's and this is often the preferred manner, if not the norm, for
Windows developers.  One could think of the Phobos runtime as being
analogous to the MFC runtime.  Why should there be different treatment,
i.e. you can do MFC programming with MFC DLL but not D programming with
Phobos DLL?  Ditto for shared objects under Linux.  If D is supposed
to be a "systems programming language", you expect that it be able to
do all manner of "systems things", including being able to do shared
object libraries and DLL's on the respective platforms.

Cheers,
Justin Johansson
Feb 09 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent Don <nospam nospam.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Steve Teale wrote:

 The inability to do this is a real show-stopper for D on Linux, and 
 unless things have got better since I last tried, the same can be said 
 for Windows DLLs.



 The dmd/samples/d/dserver.d is an example of a Windows DLL in D.



It doesn't work on D2 because of the TLS issue.
Feb 09 2010
prev sibling next sibling parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 16:28:27 -0500, Walter Bright  
<newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

 On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:58:37 -0500, Walter Bright  
 <newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 Steve Teale wrote:

 The inability to do this is a real show-stopper for D on Linux, and  
 unless things have got better since I last tried, the same can be  
 said for Windows DLLs.



 The dmd/samples/d/dserver.d is an example of a Windows DLL in D.



 handy), any D2 DLL will fail, even an empty one because of  
 http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3342



 It is a bad problem, but it doesn't apply to implicitly loaded DLLs,  
 only dynamically loaded ones, and it also doesn't apply to Vista or  
 Windows 7.



But implicitly loaded DLLs aren't supported by D!  However, I was not  
aware that it only applied to dynamically loaded ones, that is good to  
know.


 That aside, having to handle manual steps to ensure the runtime doesn't  
 lose its mind is unacceptable.  It has to be handled without any manual  
 runtime coding to be a viable solution.  DDL is not a solution, its a  
 hack.
  In other words, I should be able to flip a compiler switch to build a  
 shared lib, and I shouldn't have to do anything special aside from  
 exporting symbols.  This is the way it is in all other programming  
 languages.
  Until Phobos is a shared lib, I don't think we need to have any  
 discussions about any existing solutions.  That is requirement number 1  
 for saying D supports shared libs.



 Shared libraries (on Linux) and Windows DLLs are very different things.



Yes, I agree they are two different problems to solve.  But to a  
developer, they look the same.


 Phobos as a DLL is a different problem than creating DLLs with D. DLLs  
 in D can be created that are statically linked with Phobos, and that can  
 be accessed by any executable in any language.



They can be accessed by another D program?  My understanding is that all  
kinds of weird problems happen if you dynamically link two D programs  
together.  I'm not speaking from first-hand experience, I may be wrong.

It is very important that Phobos be a dynamic library and that you can  
build dynamic libraries easily without manual manipulation of the  
runtime.  If these two things are accomplished, then D can say it supports  
dynamic libraries, not before.  Half ass support doesn't count.  It's like  
saying a car has a cup holder because you can wedge your cup between the  
seat and the e-brake.

-Steve
Feb 09 2010
prev sibling parent "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy yahoo.com> writes:
On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:01:10 -0500, Walter Bright  
<newshound1 digitalmars.com> wrote:


 There's still a lot you can do with DLLs and D.



Yet nobody does, including Phobos.  I wonder why...

-Steve
Feb 09 2010
prev sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2/9/10 16:53, Steve Teale wrote:

 When D2 is 'frozen', as a special treat would it be possible for it to be
 able to generate object files that could be converted into shared
 libraries, and for Phobos to be a shared library to support same.

 I have tried every which way I can think of to create shared libraries
 using D. The closest I have come is with the old 1.030 GDC, and even with
 that there are problems. I've tried to describe the current situation in
 some detail on the blog section of my<a href="http://
 www.britseyeview.com/GDC-newbie.html">GDC-newbie page</a>. It is too long
 to post on the newsgroup.

 The inability to do this is a real show-stopper for D on Linux, and
 unless things have got better since I last tried, the same can be said
 for Windows DLLs.

 Please!
 Steve



I've compiled a couple of libraries as shared/dynamic libraries 
(including tango) using gdc on Mac OS X. I can't remeber I had any problems.
Feb 10 2010