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digitalmars.D - A real Forum for D

reply alex <a_bothe gmx.net> writes:
Hi folks,

I just wondered why there still is this uncomfortable and obviously outdated
newsgroup software in use.

Perhaps it'd be more contemporary to have a 'real' browser-based forum to which
everyone can register and post D-related questions&answers.

So, my recommendation would be to establish a forum based on phpBB or a similar
framework software (btw, it's free and open source, so don't worry about
possible
costs!) at forum.d-programming-language.org


To give D a further community 'push', I and a friend of mine really would like
to set up all required things if wanted.

The reason I'm asking the newsgroup directly is to have the forum that can be
reachedunder the official D internet URL, so that it won't be a 'third-party'
driven one
or something like that.


Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http interface
for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not working for me and only gives back a
connection timeout.
Nov 27 2011
next sibling parent so <so so.so> writes:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 19:41:01 +0200, alex <a_bothe gmx.net> wrote:

 Hi folks,

 I just wondered why there still is this uncomfortable and obviously  
 outdated newsgroup software in use.

 Perhaps it'd be more contemporary to have a 'real' browser-based forum  
 to which everyone can register and post D-related questions&answers.

 So, my recommendation would be to establish a forum based on phpBB or a  
 similar framework software (btw, it's free and open source, so don't  
 worry about possible
 costs!) at forum.d-programming-language.org


 To give D a further community 'push', I and a friend of mine really  
 would like to set up all required things if wanted.

 The reason I'm asking the newsgroup directly is to have the forum that  
 can be reachedunder the official D internet URL, so that it won't be a  
 'third-party' driven one
 or something like that.


 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http  
 interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not working for me and  
 only gives back a
 connection timeout.

I like what we have (newsgroups), probably because i use opera. On the http interface, slow as hell. There are no images, no videos, just a few lines of text, i don't understand why.
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"alex" <a_bothe gmx.net> wrote in message 
news:jatsnd$f71$1 digitalmars.com...
 Hi folks,

 I just wondered why there still is this uncomfortable and obviously 
 outdated newsgroup software in use.

old != outdated NGs are better. Seriously, what's with people's "old == outdated" bullshit these days? What is this, the goddamn fashion industry? Certainly feels like it half the time.
 Perhaps it'd be more contemporary to have a 'real' browser-based forum to 
 which everyone can register and post D-related questions&answers.

 So, my recommendation would be to establish a forum based on phpBB or a 
 similar framework software (btw, it's free and open source, so don't worry 
 about possible
 costs!) at forum.d-programming-language.org

phpBB is crap. Actually, anything PHP is crap.
 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http 
 interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not working for me and 
 only gives back a
 connection timeout.

People are working on a better web interface for the NG. But bear in mind, *any* web interface is going to be inherently inferior to a real NG client simply due to *being* a web interface.
Nov 27 2011
next sibling parent reply Jude Young <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
On Sun 27 Nov 2011 12:01:24 PM CST, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 "alex" <a_bothe gmx.net> wrote in message 
 news:jatsnd$f71$1 digitalmars.com...
 Hi folks,

 I just wondered why there still is this uncomfortable and obviously 
 outdated newsgroup software in use.

old != outdated NGs are better. Seriously, what's with people's "old == outdated" bullshit these days? What is this, the goddamn fashion industry? Certainly feels like it half the time.
 Perhaps it'd be more contemporary to have a 'real' browser-based forum to 
 which everyone can register and post D-related questions&answers.

 So, my recommendation would be to establish a forum based on phpBB or a 
 similar framework software (btw, it's free and open source, so don't worry 
 about possible
 costs!) at forum.d-programming-language.org

phpBB is crap. Actually, anything PHP is crap.
 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http 
 interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not working for me and 
 only gives back a
 connection timeout.

People are working on a better web interface for the NG. But bear in mind, *any* web interface is going to be inherently inferior to a real NG client simply due to *being* a web interface.

I think that everyone will admit that having an 'official' forum would probably boost popularity. A good place to post questions and search the archives EASILY would definitely be a boon.
Nov 27 2011
next sibling parent "Nick Sabalausky" <a a.a> writes:
"Jude Young" <10equals2 gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:mailman.1127.1322417735.24802.digitalmars-d puremagic.com...
 On Sun 27 Nov 2011 12:01:24 PM CST, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
 "alex" <a_bothe gmx.net> wrote in message
 news:jatsnd$f71$1 digitalmars.com...
 Hi folks,

 I just wondered why there still is this uncomfortable and obviously
 outdated newsgroup software in use.

old != outdated NGs are better. Seriously, what's with people's "old == outdated" bullshit these days? What is this, the goddamn fashion industry? Certainly feels like it half the time.
 Perhaps it'd be more contemporary to have a 'real' browser-based forum 
 to
 which everyone can register and post D-related questions&answers.

 So, my recommendation would be to establish a forum based on phpBB or a
 similar framework software (btw, it's free and open source, so don't 
 worry
 about possible
 costs!) at forum.d-programming-language.org

phpBB is crap. Actually, anything PHP is crap.
 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http
 interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not working for me and
 only gives back a
 connection timeout.

People are working on a better web interface for the NG. But bear in mind, *any* web interface is going to be inherently inferior to a real NG client simply due to *being* a web interface.

I think that everyone will admit that having an 'official' forum would probably boost popularity. A good place to post questions and search the archives EASILY would definitely be a boon.

A web forum isn't needed for that, just a better web interface to the existing NG.
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply alex <a_bothe gmx.net> writes:
 post questions and search the archives EASILY

That's it. To be more beginner-friendly. Not to be that unnecessarily complicated and opaque.
Nov 27 2011
parent reply Somedude <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:
Le 27/11/2011 20:31, Gour a écrit :
 On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 18:25:20 +0000 (UTC)
 alex <a_bothe gmx.net> wrote:
 
 That's it. To be more beginner-friendly. Not to be that unnecessarily
 complicated and opaque.

What is not beginner-friendly in this group? My mailer allows reading news, I selected digitalmars server, was offered list of groups, subscribed to the desire ones and that's it. Forum will just divide not-too-big community and with dozen of forums it's so difficult to know what to follow etc. Here I can quickly skip over non-interesting threads, quickly mark the whole tread as read, mark thread as (un)ignore, (un)watch etc. However, if you make newsgroup <--> forum gateway, then I don't care for those wanting to read forums, but I'd say that the problem is not in 'uncomfortable and obviously outdated newsgroup software', but 'uncomfortable and obviously incapable newsgroup reader software'. ;) Sincerely, Gour

The main drawback of newsgroups is the absence of a search feature. Apart from that, I like it.
Nov 28 2011
parent Somedude <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:
Le 28/11/2011 14:55, Gour a écrit :
 On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:37:38 +0100
 Somedude <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> wrote:
 
 The main drawback of newsgroups is the absence of a search feature.
 Apart from that, I like it.

It's the drawback of your *newsreader* and not of the newsgroups itself. I use Claws-mail and have powerful search features included. Sincerely, Gour

from the beginning of the newsgroup, which is not feasible. While in a forum, this is done by default. That's a reason why some questions are asked over and over again.
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling parent reply Bane <branimir.milosavljevic gmail.com> writes:
 It's not really a matter of "either/or" imo...  
 I think that everyone will admit that having an 'official' forum would 
 probably boost popularity.
 
 A good place to post questions and search the archives EASILY would 
 definitely be a boon.

True. Most people have some experiance with forums, much less of them with newsgroups. It would be user friendly and more "in" (as oposed of old geeks using old software) :) And with registred usernames there would be less/no trolls ?
Nov 27 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/27/2011 11:08 AM, Bane wrote:
 And with registred usernames there would be less/no trolls ?

Required registration is a barrier for people who want to be onetime posters. (And onetime posters often become regular posters!)
Nov 27 2011
parent reply Bane <branimir.milosavljevic gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright Wrote:

 On 11/27/2011 11:08 AM, Bane wrote:
 And with registred usernames there would be less/no trolls ?

Required registration is a barrier for people who want to be onetime posters. (And onetime posters often become regular posters!)

Yeah, I hate that too. Then anonymous access and FunnyCaptchas(tm) might work?
Nov 27 2011
parent reply Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 11/27/2011 10:18 PM, Bane wrote:
 Walter Bright Wrote:

 On 11/27/2011 11:08 AM, Bane wrote:
 And with registred usernames there would be less/no trolls ?

Required registration is a barrier for people who want to be onetime posters. (And onetime posters often become regular posters!)

Yeah, I hate that too. Then anonymous access and FunnyCaptchas(tm) might work?

How do you create a captcha that reliably discriminates between trolls and non-trolls?
Nov 27 2011
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/27/2011 2:14 PM, Timon Gehr wrote:
 How do you create a captcha that reliably discriminates between trolls and
 non-trolls?

You can't. But a nice feature would be the addition of a button that only moderators can see & use, that would simply delete the corresponding posting. Moderators can be identified using the same scheme as ssh uses.
Nov 27 2011
parent Bane <branimir.milosavljevic gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright Wrote:

 On 11/27/2011 2:14 PM, Timon Gehr wrote:
 How do you create a captcha that reliably discriminates between trolls and
 non-trolls?

You can't. But a nice feature would be the addition of a button that only moderators can see & use, that would simply delete the corresponding posting. Moderators can be identified using the same scheme as ssh uses.

Yeah, that's the idea, just to make deleting garbage more efficient.
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling parent reply Jude <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
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On 11/27/2011 04:14 PM, Timon Gehr wrote:
 On 11/27/2011 10:18 PM, Bane wrote:
 Walter Bright Wrote:
 
 On 11/27/2011 11:08 AM, Bane wrote:
 And with registred usernames there would be less/no trolls ?

Required registration is a barrier for people who want to be onetime posters. (And onetime posters often become regular posters!)

Yeah, I hate that too. Then anonymous access and FunnyCaptchas(tm) might work?

How do you create a captcha that reliably discriminates between trolls and non-trolls?

with a hide anonymous preference in the settings. Voila. easy to post, you wanna ignore them you can. Or have one specific forum for anonymous. A q-and-a type deal. There are probably a hundred ways around this. One specific forum I was a member of had a rank system based on number of posts and time since joined. anonymous and newbies get one or two small spots to post, and can still see the rest. Shrugs. It's not NG vs. forum here guys... Both have their benefits, so we should have the best of both worlds. //quote cause I'm lazy Those are all desirable properties. But the forum software I've seen throws out what's good about NNTP news forums: 1. Threaded view 2. Being able to mark messages as "read" 3. Being able to quickly scan read vs unread //end quote 1. Forums can have threaded view too, 2. I thought that that was pretty standard for forums? Highlighting for threads you've seen and threads you haven't... not for individual messages, but the last number (25 or so) messages you've seen. 3. click the nice little subscribe to thread button and it tells you if anyone else submits something. These are all things that forums have had for a while... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJO0uZxAAoJENcHIWLyQiSl5PUIAM7yy4DG4WDTnxRER5zTKL0L EoB8saJJacyIByuXmZRkLF56MMHIKhaLdmq/YfVGoe4M7GYeRZRqqPrYI6ny/7UH Yt6Tm/qE75avgwuq2kDsaMf5bmfAmRk5206q6v8VxIXRMG7uZpuI+feGHcHQyoWH DZccH9H3Ig1UMU3CywxbdKxYlqmlJyZpdG67nBvif9hXr9lbviVqCbmq4C9FxnDc xc/ZrB4s/x574TZBSDVJDriwU6YyC6wc0tAvSBSyQMVZhXyenf9+FoXC5LgSeJaI MS61W1IoeobrIGLoPTsxZw2444zjUFJiX0O1fhC2p5/8ZkWoBQlIkFyeki5SXdc= =rFfd -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Nov 27 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/27/2011 5:40 PM, Jude wrote:
 //quote cause I'm lazy
 Those are all desirable properties. But the forum software I've seen
 throws out what's good about NNTP news forums:

 1. Threaded view
 2. Being able to mark messages as "read"
 3. Being able to quickly scan read vs unread
 //end quote

 1. Forums can have threaded view too,

Generally, they suck. They just don't get what a threaded view is. Newsreaders solved this problem decades ago. A thread is not a topic. It's a view showing who replied to which message. Click to expand at each branching point, click to contract, click to see a particular message. At each point, you can see which messages you've read, and which you haven't. I've never, ever seen forum software that can do that. If there is one, point me to an example. Every newsreader does this.
 2. I thought that that was pretty standard for forums?  Highlighting
 for threads you've seen and threads you haven't... not for individual
 messages, but the last number (25 or so) messages you've seen.

Again, the forum software writers just don't get it. It has to be per message. Why? So in a larger thread, you can instantly see what is read and what isn't. This is NOT equivalent to a chronological sort. I do not read threads linearly.
 3. click the nice little subscribe to thread button and it tells you
 if anyone else submits something.

Sorry, but that's not it. I want to see if someone replied to a *particular* message.
 These are all things that forums have had for a while...

I've used many forum softwares. They all just DON'T GET IT.
Nov 27 2011
next sibling parent Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright Wrote:
 They just don't get what a threaded view is.

It's not a difficult concept. Maybe there's some web forum authors who don't get it, but I'm sure a lot of them do. And they probably also know why it is a godawful misfeature, which is why they didn't implement it. Sometimes, people are well aware of a concept, and reject it on technical grounds or other issues of merit. It really doesn't help any discussion when you assume the other side are just a bunch of idiots who obviously haven't seen the light.
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jude <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
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On 11/28/2011 12:12 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
 
 Generally, they suck. They just don't get what a threaded view is. 
 Newsreaders solved this problem decades ago. A thread is not a
 topic. It's a view showing who replied to which message. Click to
 expand at each branching point, click to contract, click to see a
 particular message. At each point, you can see which messages
 you've read, and which you haven't.
 
 I've never, ever seen forum software that can do that. If there is
 one, point me to an example.
 
 Every newsreader does this.

are a lot of people who just don't care about "proper" threading.
 
 
 2. I thought that that was pretty standard for forums?
 Highlighting for threads you've seen and threads you haven't...
 not for individual messages, but the last number (25 or so)
 messages you've seen.

Again, the forum software writers just don't get it. It has to be per message. Why? So in a larger thread, you can instantly see what is read and what isn't. This is NOT equivalent to a chronological sort. I do not read threads linearly.
 3. click the nice little subscribe to thread button and it tells
 you if anyone else submits something.

Sorry, but that's not it. I want to see if someone replied to a *particular* message.
 These are all things that forums have had for a while...

I've used many forum softwares. They all just DON'T GET IT.

Tried it, too much work for so little gain. What I don't get is why you are soo vocal about such a tiny, little thing. Check the thread with your threaded views. No one has suggested that we need to REPLACE the current newsgroup. No one has suggested anything more than "hey, maybe we should try to cater to a larger audience, instead of just those who agree that a NG is the best way to communicate ever." I've noticed that you haven't made an appearance on irc in a while. It doesn't have threaded views either, but I don't think that you would doubt it's usefulness. People like it, and I for one really appreciate it's existence. It has helped me out quite a bit, and I definitely would not have learned as much as I know(very little btw) about d if it didn't exist. - From my point of view, we have a few people who think that it would be nice to have another method of communication, and people who would like to restrict other peoples choice based on nothing more than an antiquated black and white view of the world. I have yet to see a 'valid' reason against having a forum. If you don't want to have an official forum, that is fine. If you refuse to allow it on d-p-l, that's fine too. If you won't use it, that's fine. If you don't think that it would gain enough attraction to be worthwhile, great. Say so. If you think that it would split the community too much, speak your mind. Those are all valid reasons to disagree. "Forums are lame and just "DON'T GET IT" and I don't like them and EVERYONE must agree that my method is superior and use my preferred method" is NOT a valid reason. Most people don't care about your holy wars. I'm done with this topic, it just makes me lose faith in humanity. I must apologize, the rant is over. Walter.respect--; Jude out. PS - forget the giant wall of text. Brad says it much nicer. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJO0zQnAAoJENcHIWLyQiSlGGAIAJhzRM91g+s//Krw8fCkeR8q 0AwozwIn7G9+PI7oVSIUHuCdj0bVMj8pccpQad5QKumzRj1YgMnnLKtRB8X7XO33 tZOWCnp0vin1HPNC09IJj/BAh/DjhAtgr+AcncB7D3DOXvJaH8QnoUvC7rLhe0hc 6mTY8Hb9WXEEuAF6wAy5CtrMDuSmkktkDBF5zDr68fAyh4WONDfpsZ0maA0rtSK+ nFp+Pblbv7h4ay42Z7MBG3sx5lQBrY2jiWxPK9CHUtSUDQdp2qZNH1F2rfgwnf0D C0vaHcplhK/ae/hvlX8FrN1Bcm19mKzkLO3ePd1MKk8EN4Q0eEqx9De1lJAbSwI= =HvPD -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Nov 27 2011
next sibling parent reply Jude <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
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On 11/28/2011 01:36 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:11:35 +0200, Jude <10equals2 gmail.com>
 wrote:
 
 I must apologize, the rant is over. Walter.respect--;

Woah, dude. Where did Walter say that his personal opinion on forum software has anything to do with what gets used/linked from d-p-l.org etc.? I'm not even sure what you're arguing about - are you trying to disprove a subjective opinion? I, for one, respect his opinion regarding threaded views as much as yours, and value such feedback highly. It's very insightful when you're writing something that tries to make both camps happy. I think you've mistaken genuine frustration for arrogance. Imagine being used to a user interface idiom which you perceive as vastly more productive, and then have most of the world use a dumbed-down alternative due to the common denominator / established conventions (which, btw, I think is the cause here - apathy rather than ignorance).

You're probably right. I must apologize for submitting that. I live in a place where there is a LOT of what you just called arrogance. And I'm just sick of it. "The world is black and white." (literally, a lot of race issues. ) "I'm right and you're wrong. Totally, and you're a worse person because of it." People see other people as inferior based on minute trivial matters that quite frankly don't mean a goddamned thing. I'm just sick and tired of all the shit. (forgive the expletives) You are completely right, in this case I am most likely(most likely >= 90% chance) just projecting. And this says a lot more about me than about Walter. Which is kinda embarrassing. Walter, I apologize, I should have assumed the best instead of the worst. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJO00F+AAoJENcHIWLyQiSlZf4H+QHYDDRip+tet+RZ7mVK19qW q7mxdG14SoifwiLzzQOKjPiRrkgXy2wCm4q9j8XKe4ohQVWBocWPvNHdRQljO+uZ 6pw3eEVMkWepO4R/8sG8jnSCrJYWXvzUxL/4BLTuyIMB3o2ojIfEHQ7paO1j53JY Lzm6J/i0XxGwMSioA72WuTM+mz1qid+ajoPXcbtNuZf/HPQUQ2Ts2l7/IyFjQV74 vRodDxWIkuuMlJHkCGt3+62nOuPbTS8HutYQrvqD9mBde4RNz9KXMjbuh8kqaYoo KOefqXuil1ZwG9CgtPgrL591LIpAOomlb33XxBSOxExfGy0lV59Q5vqpfyhG1aM= =SmcK -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Nov 28 2011
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/28/2011 12:08 AM, Jude wrote:
 Walter, I apologize, I should have assumed the best instead of the worst.

No need to apologize, I was not offended. Peace.
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jude <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
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On 11/28/2011 02:10 AM, so wrote:
 On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:11:35 +0200, Jude <10equals2 gmail.com>
 wrote:
 
 "Forums are lame and just "DON'T GET IT" and I don't like them
 and EVERYONE must agree that my method is superior and use my
 preferred method" is NOT a valid reason.
 
 Most people don't care about your holy wars. I'm done with this
 topic, it just makes me lose faith in humanity.

If you are in the mood of losing faith in humanity, go do it on something worthwhile like the wars and famine. Not on something insignificant like two ideas on one thing.

It's not the two ideas on one thing that bothered me, it was (admittedly my mistaken) perceived attitude about it. Wars, Famine? They all basically boil down to one thing: Two people, (or representatives of two people) disagree. But both are so absolutely certain that they are correct, they do not even attempt to look at the other side of the coin. In fact, they will blatantly refuse to even acknowledge the fact that there is a possibility that they could be wrong. There will be no compromise, not without threats to accompany it. Dictators, suicide bombings, the aforementioned wars and famine and rape and murder... they all stem from one particular source. I'm right, my path is holy, what you are doing offends me and therefore I will restrict your right to do so. We want your resources, and since we believe that might is right, we will take it without a second thought to how you feel about this. My people are superior to yours and therefore should have the right to enslave you and do with you as we see fit. My people are genetically superior to yours and therefore we will eliminate you for the benefit of mankind(read as ourselves). (it's not a thread without a hitler reference.) I deserve that apple on the cart, so I take it without a second thought to how it might affect the cart owner. It all stems from a misguided sense of superiority. A lot of people disagree with me on this, but I haven't seen a compelling argument against it yet. So when you say that if I want to lose faith in humanity, to look at x, or y. I think that deep down, the core of the problem is almost always the exact same thing. selfishness, arrogance, and a belief of superiority. I just like to call it judgement. Everything else is just variations on a theme. And with that rather somber note, I must officially excuse myself from this thread. My replies have been completely off topic, and I feel that they have contributed very little, if anything at all. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJO00fbAAoJENcHIWLyQiSltvYIANU3eclHj4TfP8c28T29Sdtp STViuk54ZnutdhCUxr9bxjJ9mTU7u8HIGGh6ZVrBiGv1hUJ+4lNfOAsOo17rKJkq +sZikhttqT+1jrAbKQ3Evh8/9YThneAVev2FgZDYoSljTCZ6iPTpKNDnaT2qUrhn hefmgznNAblm09zjPEbEaIb/2uDUc3kGa6oNIRpLZyytly7yxKMXhl74xM4V6sxM DMYf4cOdw1xDfPb3fJ5qbrlyEgg4svPh6fNiE7gWmqHXMoAG4ext+SGko+8xUvB8 FEzENpw9mTY7ozoGp0oqE+avREoCfnhZPh7/vyp56dOKvPwqUwjafIvJVCKQBkA= =0twu -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Nov 28 2011
next sibling parent reply Jude <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
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On 11/28/2011 02:56 AM, so wrote:
 I think you believe something i would say quite naive, as everyone
 have the best intentions, as they just fight for what they believe
 right. Maybe it was the case where we were in caves, it is not
 now.
 
 Everything boils down to one thing IMO, we live in a structure made
 of with the worst of the intentions. We accumulate power to a
 single place and every now and then give it to a mad puppet. (never
 been a decent man had that power, why would a decent man want that
 kind of power?) They are doing what they were told, destroying
 everything in their way, and we have to live with its consequences
 because we are that stupid. They are smart people, far smarter than
 the mess. They are not racist but they profit from racism. It is
 not the clash of opinions, it never was, it is just the clash of 
 profit. It was the clash of opinions for dummies like us who just
 go and die for them.

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Nov 28 2011
parent Jude <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
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Hash: SHA1

On 11/28/2011 03:38 AM, so wrote:
 On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:26:19 +0200, Jude <10equals2 gmail.com>
 wrote:
 
 Thread continues on [OT] for SO

Shhh, don't worry. Nobody can see us deep down here!

I think I scared everyone off. =P I moved it before i saw this. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJO01q2AAoJENcHIWLyQiSlNRMIAOkYP/ovukSic8qjW59XTRdn Wo9jMf9Qhz+/tC3oxkFJwVKw3YrgzdO+rumT8yfOI8ZZpKr4GiIBHMtKt+27J/Dp m8jrLodPMqnEl0k3PUOJBq2uc0lNfJa1o1YyzuuuaQV39oCNwbHlFRpCikgNJRtW tFDxQUP+WuukZlzHFEVu6HoF95EK1gsXvwFd8+8Uq+GhaXz0Kxhw68wbadqyi07s VA6/k5SBOoQRq8skbxGivok97z0cGyzLHs5idmlUypVOqANoUOSv/6dzs+8WpQhP f5YTEsHBfqDgFy17woCVy1shNblXrHl6tzW6Q37/C8En0JknjwkvbY5cWkvdrKY= =bDEy -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling parent Jude <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
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Hash: SHA1

On 11/28/2011 02:56 AM, so wrote:
 I think you believe something i would say quite naive, as everyone
 have the best intentions, as they just fight for what they believe
 right. Maybe it was the case where we were in caves, it is not
 now.

naive, or if you believe that my idea is naive. Either way its probably true. =P I would tend to believe that the cavemen were a little more pure in their intentions. (assuming that they were 'retarded' compared to man now. Can someone be blamed for not thinking of others when it is harder for them to actually think?) But we are different from cavemen and animals, they act more on instinct.
 
 Everything boils down to one thing IMO, we live in a structure made
 of with the worst of the intentions. We accumulate power to a
 single place and every now and then give it to a mad puppet. (never
 been a decent man had that power, why would a decent man want that
 kind of power?)

people in a position of power. But they are entirely too few.
 They are doing what they were told, destroying everything in their
 way, and we have to live with its consequences because we are that
 stupid.

might be wrong is just another form of what I was talking about. "If I question my orders, I risk losing something of value. Therefore, my wellbeing trumps other people's wellbeing." The opinion ends up being that he believes that he is more important than others.
 They are smart people, far smarter than the mess. They are not
 racist but they profit from racism. It is not the clash of
 opinions, it never was, it is just the clash of profit.

Profit, opinions, they are both just variations on a theme. "If I do this, I stand to gain wealth. Me having wealth is greater than you having life." It all boils down to the belief that they are more important, and/or 'right.' "Because I can profit, this is justifiable." == "Because my god said so, this is justifiable."
 It was the clash of opinions for dummies like us who just go and
 die for them.

Not sure I understand, but I think I agree. =P I don't think the english language really has a word for what I'm trying to describe. kind of a combination of selfishness, and judgement. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJO01qBAAoJENcHIWLyQiSlONAH/06UTGdH4zBrO7BgiBOGARF/ kkP+8l+l3z37LYvpPUXkSHlsRcQDX2/TXslKhiB4oQCjLEvoCIhrBa0TqeU0KZia pzWoKW+AhpJNSP8Uag40m46Lx3aiABY0krdRzBSHx00l/Bc0Qx3d9SOmwROVK2R4 tManuIH3a2gjRRJ6F8uHvzdpGBD6a23iD1dCEUIvWlNCbZtI5dMmAcHxhuu2ssdv S8SCEIkGct6EHXUXOuz1X8FEIrwtsHCayN5/o5UHFibIZnuvU3Q1rhdOaJRLpMW4 SD9Ck/IvGp7Pg/CN8+a14z/7at+Lm4vzmp2bFcYVcJUjZ6pQ4ISxE6x0G3Siero= =+yfh -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/27/2011 11:11 PM, Jude wrote:
 I for one am glad they "DON'T GET IT."  I can't stand threaded view.
 Tried it, too much work for so little gain.

 What I don't get is why you are soo vocal about such a tiny, little thing.
 Check the thread with your threaded views. No one has suggested that
 we need to REPLACE the current newsgroup.

 No one has suggested anything more than "hey, maybe we should try to
 cater to a larger audience, instead of just those who agree that a NG
 is the best way to communicate ever."

Many have suggested replacing the ng with off-the-shelf web forum software.
 I've noticed that you haven't made an appearance on irc in a while.
 It doesn't have threaded views either, but I don't think that you
 would doubt it's usefulness.

I find irc to be difficult to deal with once a conversation gets beyond trivia, and multiple people are typing at once. I use skype chat, but that's almost always with just two people involved. That works, as it doesn't need threading.
 People like it, and I for one really appreciate it's existence.
 It has helped me out quite a bit, and I definitely would not have
 learned as much as I know(very little btw) about d if it didn't exist.

That's good, but it doesn't work for me.
 - From my point of view, we have a few people who think that it would be
 nice to have another method of communication, and people who would
 like to restrict other peoples choice based on nothing more than an
 antiquated black and white view of the world.

 I have yet to see a 'valid' reason against having a forum.

It splits our community into two groups that likely won't communicate with each other.
 "Forums are lame and just "DON'T GET IT" and I don't like them and
 EVERYONE must agree that my method is superior and use my preferred
 method" is NOT a valid reason.

We've been using NNTP for 10 years, and it's been pretty successful. Another reason is to not mess with what is working. Please note that I have encouraged development of a "forum like" web app that operates as a front end to NNTP.
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/27/2011 11:36 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 Imagine being used to
 a user interface idiom which you perceive as vastly more productive, and then
 have most of the world use a dumbed-down alternative due to the common
 denominator / established conventions (which, btw, I think is the cause here -
 apathy rather than ignorance).

To be fair, I also don't care for all the eye candy that usually comes with web forum software. The text of the messages often seems like a mere afterthought that is grudgingly given a small corner of the screen :-)
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
Walter Bright Wrote:

 On 11/27/2011 5:40 PM, Jude wrote:
 //quote cause I'm lazy
 Those are all desirable properties. But the forum software I've seen
 throws out what's good about NNTP news forums:

 1. Threaded view
 2. Being able to mark messages as "read"
 3. Being able to quickly scan read vs unread
 //end quote

 1. Forums can have threaded view too,

Generally, they suck. They just don't get what a threaded view is. Newsreaders solved this problem decades ago. A thread is not a topic. It's a view showing who replied to which message.

It's not a contract, it's just a convention. I can easily imagine how to reply to two messages in one posting. Some forums even have plugins that merge consecutive posts from the same author.
 Click to expand at each branching point, click to 
 contract, click to see a particular message. At each point, you can see which 
 messages you've read, and which you haven't.

In forum you already have all messages before your eyes.
 2. I thought that that was pretty standard for forums?  Highlighting
 for threads you've seen and threads you haven't... not for individual
 messages, but the last number (25 or so) messages you've seen.

Again, the forum software writers just don't get it. It has to be per message. Why? So in a larger thread, you can instantly see what is read and what isn't. This is NOT equivalent to a chronological sort. I do not read threads linearly.

In Soviet Russia... errm... I mean with linear chronological view you do. Think of it as a novel: it has a linear structure, a bunch of plot threads and they intertwine in chronological order. And it's usually not a problem to track them simultaneously. Chronological order also helps to understand people. This way posts tend to be grouped by author (remember you've posted 4 messages in a row to this topic). This way one can better understand you as your thoughts are concentrated in one place rather than scattered all over sub-threads: will all information at hands it's easier to figure out your viewpoint in all details.
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <usefirstnameinstead-newsgroup unknownbrackets.org> writes:
Walter,

Well, having authored web forum software, I suppose I'll make a few 
remarks here.  I seem to have gotten hit by a stray "forum software 
writers (that's me) just don't get it."

1. Well, I get threads, I really do.  I understand their usefulness, and 
how sometimes it's beneficial to completely ignore a branch - for 
example, someone reporting an issue with a release on FreeBSD, that 
doesn't affect me and I don't care about.

That said, I must say it's a relatively artificial form of conversation. 
  It's annoying, quite frankly.  It's not that I don't get it, I just 
don't *like* it.

I'm not alone.  Tons of other people have abandoned this artificial 
communication format, not because they're stupid or "the masses" or they 
don't get it, but simply because the cost benefit is not, generally there.

Nevertheless, I'll point out that vBulletin does, in fact, have this 
feature, although I can't even remember that last time I saw someone use 
it.  Instead they often try "hybrid" mode, which is a joke.  If you saw 
that, you'd assume no one gets it.

2. I can't speak to all forum software, since several years ago I'm 
pretty sure they just remembered the latest timestamp of the latest post 
when you last visited.

But the forum software I was involved in, SMF, absolutely stores more 
detail than just the topic being read or not.  And I'd imagine 
vBulletin, as well, stores it per post in threaded mode.

3. Ignoring the comments about email replies (since they are easy 
fodder), and returning to the original: many forum softwares (including 
my own) due indeed provide a way to easily see which posts or topics you 
have or have not read.

In fact, for a long while, I'm pretty sure SMF was the *only* one that 
remembered topics you hadn't read between visits.  Maybe FUDforum too. 
Now a bunch do it, I think.  Possibly all.

(cross-branch reply)

I'll also mention that most any web forum software does, in fact, have 
authenticated moderation controls, easy to use ones in fact.

They could use client SSL certificates as security (RSA keys would be a 
hard fit, I'd suggest a VPN with an authenticated IP range in that 
case), but generally browser interfaces to this aren't ideal, and 
difficult to transfer or recover.  That said, it's not that hard to use, 
and I've wondered myself why it's not done more often.

(another cross-branch reply that is useful in context...)

Anyway, an NNTP bridge to a forum could certainly be written, and I'm 
relatively sure there are already some available.  Unfortunately, it's 
typical that they succumb to the same problems as #1, especially if the 
interface doesn't enforce threading.

I'll note that I use Gmail proudly and often these days.  I'm happy that 
it has adopted a *linear conversation format*, which makes sense to me, 
works well, and simplifies reviewing past and future conversations.  I'm 
not aware of any threaded message display format, despite the fact the 
emails are ostensibly (though note cross replies and such) threaded.

And let's be honest.  When people ask for web based forums, they're not 
talking about putting a threaded interface up.

-[Unknown]


On 11/27/2011 10:12 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 11/27/2011 5:40 PM, Jude wrote:
 //quote cause I'm lazy
 Those are all desirable properties. But the forum software I've seen
 throws out what's good about NNTP news forums:

 1. Threaded view
 2. Being able to mark messages as "read"
 3. Being able to quickly scan read vs unread
 //end quote

 1. Forums can have threaded view too,

Generally, they suck. They just don't get what a threaded view is. Newsreaders solved this problem decades ago. A thread is not a topic. It's a view showing who replied to which message. Click to expand at each branching point, click to contract, click to see a particular message. At each point, you can see which messages you've read, and which you haven't. I've never, ever seen forum software that can do that. If there is one, point me to an example. Every newsreader does this.
 2. I thought that that was pretty standard for forums? Highlighting
 for threads you've seen and threads you haven't... not for individual
 messages, but the last number (25 or so) messages you've seen.

Again, the forum software writers just don't get it. It has to be per message. Why? So in a larger thread, you can instantly see what is read and what isn't. This is NOT equivalent to a chronological sort. I do not read threads linearly.
 3. click the nice little subscribe to thread button and it tells you
 if anyone else submits something.

Sorry, but that's not it. I want to see if someone replied to a *particular* message.
 These are all things that forums have had for a while...

I've used many forum softwares. They all just DON'T GET IT.

Nov 28 2011
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/28/2011 11:06 PM, Unknown W. Brackets wrote:
 3. Ignoring the comments about email replies (since they are easy fodder), and
 returning to the original: many forum softwares (including my own) due indeed
 provide a way to easily see which posts or topics you have or have not read.

 In fact, for a long while, I'm pretty sure SMF was the *only* one that
 remembered topics you hadn't read between visits. Maybe FUDforum too. Now a
 bunch do it, I think. Possibly all.

All? Reddit does not, Slashdot does not, Gamedev.net does not, Seattletimes.com does not, stackoverflow does not, digg does not, etc. I don't recall ever seeing one that allowed marking an individual post as "read".
Nov 29 2011
next sibling parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <usefirstnameinstead-newsgroup unknownbrackets.org> writes:
Walter,

Well, when I think "web forum software" I think installable.  I'm pretty 
sure the ones you named are generally all proprietary.  It's certainly 
rare for proprietary forum software to deal with read status at that 
level, I agree.

I don't even think Slashdot has a concept of "read", but then, I don't 
frequent it (or Reddit or Digg) much.

-[Unknown]


On 11/29/2011 12:17 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 11/28/2011 11:06 PM, Unknown W. Brackets wrote:
 3. Ignoring the comments about email replies (since they are easy
 fodder), and
 returning to the original: many forum softwares (including my own) due
 indeed
 provide a way to easily see which posts or topics you have or have not
 read.

 In fact, for a long while, I'm pretty sure SMF was the *only* one that
 remembered topics you hadn't read between visits. Maybe FUDforum too.
 Now a
 bunch do it, I think. Possibly all.

All? Reddit does not, Slashdot does not, Gamedev.net does not, Seattletimes.com does not, stackoverflow does not, digg does not, etc. I don't recall ever seeing one that allowed marking an individual post as "read".

Nov 29 2011
parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <usefirstnameinstead-newsgroup unknownbrackets.org> writes:
Vladimir,

Sure.  But I can't remember ever seeing a site that looked like it was 
using Slashdot or Reddits code, other than those sites themselves.

But maybe that's an audience problem.  That said, when people want a 
"comment system", they usually use Wordpress, and they're usually right 
to do so.

Well, I guess more people are using Disqus and Facebook these days too.

-[Unknown]


On 11/29/2011 12:41 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 10:39:35 +0200, Unknown W. Brackets
 <usefirstnameinstead-newsgroup unknownbrackets.org> wrote:

 Well, when I think "web forum software" I think installable.

Reddit and SlashDot are open-source. I think the distinction you're looking for is "discussion forum" vs. "comment system". Reddit, Digg, SlashDot and possibly others fall into that category.

Nov 29 2011
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/29/2011 1:20 AM, Unknown W. Brackets wrote:
 Sure. But I can't remember ever seeing a site that looked like it was using
 Slashdot or Reddits code, other than those sites themselves.

I'm pretty sure Hacker News uses Reddit's software.
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/29/2011 8:37 AM, Brad Anderson wrote:
 Reddit does. You just need to be a paying user (reddit gold).

Evidently it is a valuable feature!
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <usefirstnameinstead-newsgroup unknownbrackets.org> writes:
Please see comments interpolated below.

-[Unknown]


On 11/28/2011 11:50 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 1. Well, I get threads, I really do. I understand their usefulness,
 and how sometimes it's beneficial to completely ignore a branch - for
 example, someone reporting an issue with a release on FreeBSD, that
 doesn't affect me and I don't care about.

 That said, I must say it's a relatively artificial form of
 conversation. It's annoying, quite frankly. It's not that I don't get
 it, I just don't *like* it.

Aren't you contradicting yourself? All merits of using some alternatives may become fully apparent only after extended use, and attempts to switch back. Productivity gains are often hard to quantify, thus reports of such can be easily confused with bias (it goes both ways, of course).

I've definitely used threaded conversation in the past. In fact, I used to think it was much better than linear, quite so. But, then I used linear for quite some time and realized something simple: threaded is just a pain, and only barely better. I'd rather have 90+% the utility with less than 50% the pain. Far more productive IMHO. And to be clear, I don't really like forums in general (despite developing them) threaded or not, neither newsgroups. But they serve a purpose.
 I don't see how you can objectively say that linear conversations are
 less "artificial" than threaded ones.

Well, if I'm talking in a meeting at work, the conversation follows a path. If people bring up old information, that happens in a linear fashion, not a branching one. I don't think I've ever communicated in any non-linear way. Even when writing letters, I do so very linearly. I find imposing branching to be an artificial supplement to a natural conversation. That's not to imply linear forum conversations in text are not at all artificial (intonations, etc. are a great example) - just that they are less so. I've also participated in debate, public speaking, general meetings, and interviewing. All of these are highly linear, or at least I think so.
 What cost? Perhaps this is all about suboptimal UIs?

Productivity cost. The cost of dealing with it (even if it's small), replying in the right places, looking back in the right places for things you remember, etc. Call it laziness if you will, I guess.
 I just tried the threaded mode. Compared to a real newsreader, it is
 also a joke.

Well, I haven't used it in a while, but I don't recall it being terribly different from Thunderbird, which is what I use for this newsgroup, in interface or features (and it was probably more stable, although Thunderbird hasn't been crashing as much these days.) I suppose Thunderbird may also be a terrible client, I don't really know. I'm not really in the market for a new one, though, since I only use it to catch up on D.
 It does not. Major forum software, including SMF (I just checked the
 source), store the last post ID that you've seen in a thread.

Well, given the viewing format, this makes sense. But as I said, it's not "just the topic level." Since there's no way to insert a post into the conversation after-the-fact, this is only a question of how it's stored and optimized.
 Why do you even mention topics? It's clear as day that major forums save
 which threads you haven't read in their entirety, but not individual posts.

That's not at all true. Try this, then: 1. View a topic that is 10 pages long, but only read until page 5. 2. Close your browser or come back to the site a day later. 3. Click the "new" icon to get the next unread post in the topic. You'll go to page 6. I would not define this as "threads ... read in their entirety." It's true that it's not marking individual posts, because if you go directly to page 5, pages 1-4 won't be presented as read. I also can tell you from experience that if they were presented as such, people would be confused and complain. Actually, I do agree lots is wrong about forum software (and also about newsgroups too), but so much is "set in stone" by how people are used to using it. This isn't a new problem.
 I'll note that I use Gmail proudly and often these days.

Be careful with that pride. They say it blinds.

Haha, well, I mean that I'm proud of its general quality, even if I had nothing to do with it. Not proud like an Apple product user (although I do own and use some Apple products, some of which necessitated by my work.) I think it's the latter kind which has blinding hazard. -[Unknown]
Nov 29 2011
parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <usefirstnameinstead-newsgroup unknownbrackets.org> writes:
Comments interpolated below.

-[Unknown]


On 11/29/2011 1:29 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 What I'm concerned about, is that based on your recommendation of
 vBulletin's threaded UI, you may have simply experienced poor UI?

 For example, vBulletin only dedicates a measly amount of screen space to
 the thread view...

 Another important element is keyboard navigation...

These are both very reasonable criticisms. But, the size of the tree can be trivially increased (if installing it as software, and customizing the skin.) For keyboard, some of the problems are handled by the browser (for example, spacebar and find-as-you-type is about all I need.) But, I agree most web software (and indeed, SMF) could use better keyboard interaction.
 The analogy to speech only holds for as long as you assume that only one
 person is speaking at the same time. Threads often diverge in multiple
 unrelated conversations, often with a smaller subset of participants -
 something like a rowdy classroom. In linear views, the noise becomes
 annoying; moderators commonly have the responsibility to separate
 conversations that have diverged too much.

Well, I think a group of reasonable can self-moderate, to a large degree, and I've seen it happen. I don't really think disorganization is a benefit, myself. I think having a clear structure (ironically) to the conversation in a linear format is a benefit. Also, since people who (very arguably) are more likely to self moderate are also the primary audience for newsgroups (being that less tech savvy people don't bother, typically), I don't really think it's a problem worth trying to solve. That's kinda what I meant; experience with the linear format has shown me that these aren't really issues, and if they are, they'll be issues either way.
 Hmm... As opposed to ignoring sub-threads you're not interested about?

I've found the occurrence of sub threads I actually have no interest in whatsoever to be pretty low. More importantly, when I don't read them, I'm often ill-informed, because I don't know about information that is actually relevant to me but was exposed in a leaf within a branch I ignored. I'll note that I don't really care for things like Reddit/Slashdot, and usually use forums to discuss things like in these newsgroups: code, ideas, methodologies, issues/feedback, projects, etc. Directed, interesting things. Not just a free-for-all of thoughts on why a snail's shell was painted with bright colors by someone. Those need threading.
 Well, as I mentioned earlier, this is not something that can be
 objectively argued about.

Sure, I agree. Every human is biased in some way, and there exist separate solutions not only to refine and innovate and specialize, but also for the different ways people think and interact.
 It suffers from the same problems as other forums (does not remember
 individual read posts), but also has a rather clumsy UI.

Well, if it doesn't remember the actual posts, then that seems like a pretty useless threaded mode for sure, yes. I could've sworn it did... but I think I used it in vBulletin 3 last, which I'm certain isn't the latest version.
 I also can tell you from experience that if they were presented as
 such, people would be confused and complain. Actually, I do agree lots
 is wrong about forum software (and also about newsgroups too), but so
 much is "set in stone" by how people are used to using it. This isn't
 a new problem.

You're contradicting yourself again... earlier you said:

No, I do not mean "people are used to non-threaded." I mean, "people are used to not seeing something older than what they most recently read on forums." I actually remember proposing storing "swiss cheese" thread read state, and being shot down. That's just how UX works, though. Once a (de facto) standard has been built, anything contrary to it is, by definition, wrong. That's what I meant.
 But I agree that Joe Average doesn't need threading. Still, choice is
 good, as the presence of choice opens the doors for others to discover
 subjectively-superior ways of communication. :)

Sure, but I just don't think it's fair to say that people don't use threading because they "don't get it," or that people who want D discussion to happen with more modernly open means of involvement are "less techy." -[Unknown]
Nov 29 2011
parent "Unknown W. Brackets" <usefirstnameinstead-newsgroup unknownbrackets.org> writes:
Given the variety and fragmentation of clients, styles (above and 
below), etc. never hurts to say that the message is interpolated.

-[Unknown]


On 11/29/2011 2:55 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 I wouldn't call making custom skins "trivial"...

Well, I'd expect one to be made to integrate the look with digitalmars, in the case that one were used. Generally, most softwares make this relatively easy, depending on a few factors. In this particular case, it should (I'm assuming, if the HTML is written correctly), be a minor CSS change.
 But why would you consider subthreads undesirable? In a threaded view,
 subthreads you are not interested in are a non-issue. What you call
 "self moderation" seems to me like an artificial restriction that has no
 reason to be there.

 Netiquette still asks that posters substantially diverging from the
 current subject to amend the subject line, and - if entirely off-topic
 discussion is unavoidable - mark it as such with the [OT] tag.

Well, that's all I mean by self moderation. If users are making a conscious effort to clarify (just like a "forward" button in email), then problem solved. I find subthreads undesirable because humans think and experience the conversation linearly. They're not unlikely to cross reference, and in newsgroups it's common to read "as X posted in his other reply" and such. So, then you have to go hunt that down. It also seems like providing links to other posts can't be done ideally. It's rarely done, sometimes it uses a proprietary link, sometimes it uses news://, and in most readers this seems to break threading (e.g. pretty sure Thunderbird just opens the post in a new tab without context.) So, solving the multi-parent/cross-referencing issue oneself isn't trivial.
 In our case, it's clear that we have users who prefer linear and
 threaded views, and web-based vs. dedicated UIs - therefore, the
 solution is obvious: choice.

Sure, and choice is wonderful. But conflicting choice is the problem. For example, on a web based forum I typically will reply, quoting multiple people who talked about similar things, and addressing their points or concerns together. I may make multiple posts in a row (depending on the forum, some consider this bad manners) if there are many posts to reply to with slightly varying sub-subjects. This usually works well, and allows people to skim in ways that make sense. Now, if I have the choice to do that, how does it mesh with a newsgroup style? Now I have a single post with multiple parents. Where does it go? This is the question that "hybrid mode" fails to answer, and when you see it enabled, it's obvious who does and who doesn't use the threading. So, in that case at least, choice makes everyone lose, basically.
 Well, after seeing the rather sorry implementations of threaded views in
 forums, it certainly does look like the forum developers "didn't get it"
 when their users asked for a thread view.

I'd argue this just means no one requested it. Anyway, I searched just a bit and found just one post for someone requesting Jelsoft add keyboard navigation to the threaded view... from 2002 with no replies. I can't really blame them for not putting too much attention on the feature if that's all they've received. Doing a few casual Google searches, it seems people generally prefer IP.Board's threaded style, but I haven't seen this. -[Unknown]
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jude Young <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
On Sun 27 Nov 2011 12:25:20 PM CST, alex wrote:
 post questions and search the archives EASILY

That's it. To be more beginner-friendly. Not to be that unnecessarily complicated and opaque.

If you make a forum, I would join. I like the NG. and let's face it, it's generally the people that make the community. D has a nice community. but damn if they don't like their "holy wars." =P (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_war#See_also)
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply so <so so.so> writes:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 21:08:46 +0200, Bane  
<branimir.milosavljevic gmail.com> wrote:

 And with registred usernames there would be less/no trolls ?

Quite the contrary. After you introduce read/write web interfaces based on popular frameworks, you open doors to new kind of trolls and worse... spams. Since this is a programmer related area, it might be worse. Mind you, we have "zero" moderation yet we have "almost" no spam, no troll.
Nov 27 2011
parent Bane <branimir.milosavljevic gmail.com> writes:
so Wrote:

 On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 21:08:46 +0200, Bane  
 <branimir.milosavljevic gmail.com> wrote:
 
 And with registred usernames there would be less/no trolls ?

Quite the contrary. After you introduce read/write web interfaces based on popular frameworks, you open doors to new kind of trolls and worse... spams. Since this is a programmer related area, it might be worse.

But funny captchas can fix it! And it will be fun :)
 
 Mind you, we have "zero" moderation yet we have "almost" no spam, no troll.

I don't know specifics. Maybe it is the risk worth taking if benefits are that more people will read this.
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Jimmy Cao <jcao219 gmail.com> writes:
--000e0ce0048efd5f5804b2bd50f9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

2011/11/27 Nick Sabalausky <a a.a>

 "alex" <a_bothe gmx.net> wrote in message
 news:jatsnd$f71$1 digitalmars.com...
 Hi folks,

 I just wondered why there still is this uncomfortable and obviously
 outdated newsgroup software in use.

old != outdated NGs are better. Seriously, what's with people's "old == outdated" bullshit these days? What is this, the goddamn fashion industry? Certainly feels like it half the time.
 Perhaps it'd be more contemporary to have a 'real' browser-based forum to
 which everyone can register and post D-related questions&answers.

 So, my recommendation would be to establish a forum based on phpBB or a
 similar framework software (btw, it's free and open source, so don't

 about possible
 costs!) at forum.d-programming-language.org

phpBB is crap. Actually, anything PHP is crap.
 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http
 interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not working for me and
 only gives back a
 connection timeout.

People are working on a better web interface for the NG. But bear in mind, *any* web interface is going to be inherently inferior to a real NG client simply due to *being* a web interface.

Everything is moving to the cloud and to the web. Many people, including me, only use the web interface for webmail providers like Gmail now. To me, Thunderbird and Outlook are less desirable now that there's a web interface that you can access with all the computers that you use every day. Now, your "all-in-one" browser can replace all those scattered background processes. Why are online bulletin boards/forums attractive? - The entire interface is designed for message board communication. You can navigate easily as the interface organizes conversations into pages. For example, you can just click on a link and you will find all the that you yourself started. - The interface allows you to permalink individual posts and share them. - The capability to edit posts. This is extremely useful and a major advantage. - Sticky posts - Posts that are very important and should be locked at the top so that they are easily accessible. - Profiles - you can visit a person's profile to learn more about him. This person can set his own avatar, his contact details, and even his website. - Convenient and fully-featured searching - you can do a search even if you are a new member of the forum. A good web interface or search engine on a NG allows this, but not with the same capabilities. - Post count (friendly competition and statistics) - Better hierarchy of forums - you have forums and subforums. - Private messaging. Sure, you can do this via email, but with a forum, you have your own private message inbox for better organization and access. - Easier moderation - I would imagine that admins can delete or move posts much easier on a forum. - Sometimes the interface will tell you if someone is online or not. You can also see the amount of people who are viewing a subforum or a thread. - Extensive formatting options - colors, graphic smilies, quotes, code highlighting with GeSHi, etc. By the way, a while back I submitted an updated D syntax highlighting guide to GeSHi, so eventually Wikipedia and Wikibooks might highlight D2 fully, too. --000e0ce0048efd5f5804b2bd50f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/11/27 Nick Sabalausky <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;a a.a&gt;</span><br><div c= lass=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 = 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">&quot;alex&quot; &lt;<= a href=3D"mailto:a_bothe gmx.net">a_bothe gmx.net</a>&gt; wrote in message<= br> news:jatsnd$f71$1 digitalmars.com...<br> <div class=3D"im">&gt; Hi folks,<br> &gt;<br> &gt; I just wondered why there still is this uncomfortable and obviously<br=

&gt;<br> <br> </div>old !=3D outdated<br> <br> NGs are better.<br> <br> Seriously, what&#39;s with people&#39;s &quot;old =3D=3D outdated&quot; bul= lshit these days? What<br> is this, the goddamn fashion industry? Certainly feels like it half the<br> time.<br> <div class=3D"im"><br> &gt; Perhaps it&#39;d be more contemporary to have a &#39;real&#39; browser= -based forum to<br> &gt; which everyone can register and post D-related questions&amp;answers.<= br> &gt;<br> &gt; So, my recommendation would be to establish a forum based on phpBB or = a<br> &gt; similar framework software (btw, it&#39;s free and open source, so don= &#39;t worry<br> &gt; about possible<br> &gt; costs!) at <a href=3D"http://forum.d-programming-language.org" target= =3D"_blank">forum.d-programming-language.org</a><br> &gt;<br> <br> </div>phpBB is crap. Actually, anything PHP is crap.<br> <div class=3D"im"><br> &gt;<br> &gt; Even if this idea should be a bit too &#39;large&#39;, please do fix t= he http<br> &gt; interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it&#39;s not working for m= e and<br> &gt; only gives back a<br> &gt; connection timeout.<br> <br> </div>People are working on a better web interface for the NG. But bear in = mind,<br> *any* web interface is going to be inherently inferior to a real NG client<= br> simply due to *being* a web interface.<br> <br> <br> </blockquote></div><br><div><br></div><div>Everything is moving to the clou= d and to the web. =A0Many people, including me, only use the web interface = for webmail providers like Gmail now. =A0To me, Thunderbird and Outlook are= less desirable now that there&#39;s a web interface that you can access wi= th all the computers that you use every day. =A0Now, your &quot;all-in-one&= quot; browser can replace all those scattered background processes.=A0</div=

<div><br></div><div>Why are online bulletin boards/forums attractive?</div>= <div><ul><li>The entire interface is designed for message board communicati= on. =A0You can navigate easily as the interface organizes conversations int= o pages. =A0For example, you can just click on a link and you will find all= the that you yourself started.</li> <li>The interface allows you to permalink individual posts and share them.<= /li><li>The capability to edit posts. =A0This is extremely useful and a maj= or advantage.</li><li>Sticky posts - Posts that are very important and shou= ld be locked at the top so that they are easily accessible.</li> <li>Profiles - you can visit a person&#39;s profile to learn more about him= . =A0This person can set his own avatar, his contact details, and even his = website.</li><li>Convenient and fully-featured searching - you can do a sea= rch even if you are a new member of the forum. =A0A good web interface or s= earch engine on a NG allows this, but not with the same capabilities.</li> <li>Post count (friendly competition and statistics)</li><li>Better hierarc= hy of forums - you have forums and subforums.</li><li>Private messaging. = =A0Sure, you can do this via email, but with a forum, you have your own pri= vate message inbox for better organization and access.</li> <li>Easier moderation - I would imagine that admins can delete or move post= s much easier on a forum.</li><li>Sometimes the interface will tell you if = someone is online or not. =A0You can also see the amount of people who are = viewing a subforum or a thread.</li> <li>Extensive formatting options - colors, graphic smilies, quotes, code hi= ghlighting with GeSHi, etc. =A0By the way, a while back I submitted an upda= ted D syntax highlighting guide to GeSHi, so eventually Wikipedia and Wikib= ooks might highlight D2 fully, too.</li> </ul></div> --000e0ce0048efd5f5804b2bd50f9--
Nov 27 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/27/2011 12:34 PM, Jimmy Cao wrote:
 Why are online bulletin boards/forums attractive?

     * The entire interface is designed for message board communication.  You
can
       navigate easily as the interface organizes conversations into pages.  For
       example, you can just click on a link and you will find all the that you
       yourself started.
     * The interface allows you to permalink individual posts and share them.
     * The capability to edit posts.  This is extremely useful and a major
advantage.
     * Sticky posts - Posts that are very important and should be locked at the
       top so that they are easily accessible.
     * Profiles - you can visit a person's profile to learn more about him. 
This
       person can set his own avatar, his contact details, and even his website.
     * Convenient and fully-featured searching - you can do a search even if you
       are a new member of the forum.  A good web interface or search engine on
a
       NG allows this, but not with the same capabilities.
     * Post count (friendly competition and statistics)
     * Better hierarchy of forums - you have forums and subforums.
     * Private messaging.  Sure, you can do this via email, but with a forum,
you
       have your own private message inbox for better organization and access.
     * Easier moderation - I would imagine that admins can delete or move posts
       much easier on a forum.
     * Sometimes the interface will tell you if someone is online or not.  You
       can also see the amount of people who are viewing a subforum or a thread.
     * Extensive formatting options - colors, graphic smilies, quotes, code
       highlighting with GeSHi, etc.  By the way, a while back I submitted an
       updated D syntax highlighting guide to GeSHi, so eventually Wikipedia and
       Wikibooks might highlight D2 fully, too.

Those are all desirable properties. But the forum software I've seen throws out what's good about NNTP news forums: 1. Threaded view 2. Being able to mark messages as "read" 3. Being able to quickly scan read vs unread BTW, most forum software is pretty much unreadable on small, mobile screens because all the real estate is consumed by the borders, avatars, decorations, gee-gaws, etc. Even text-only reddit blows on the small screen because the text refuses to reflow.
Nov 27 2011
parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-11-27 23:30, Walter Bright wrote:
 Those are all desirable properties. But the forum software I've seen
 throws out what's good about NNTP news forums:

 1. Threaded view
 2. Being able to mark messages as "read"
 3. Being able to quickly scan read vs unread

Just because this may be true for most of the forums doesn't mean it needs to be true if d-p-l.org gets a new forum.
 BTW, most forum software is pretty much unreadable on small, mobile
 screens because all the real estate is consumed by the borders, avatars,
 decorations, gee-gaws, etc. Even text-only reddit blows on the small
 screen because the text refuses to reflow.

Then that's just bad design. If the forum is designed correctly there won't be any problem. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 27 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/27/2011 11:55 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-11-27 23:30, Walter Bright wrote:
 Those are all desirable properties. But the forum software I've seen
 throws out what's good about NNTP news forums:

 1. Threaded view
 2. Being able to mark messages as "read"
 3. Being able to quickly scan read vs unread

Just because this may be true for most of the forums doesn't mean it needs to be true if d-p-l.org gets a new forum.
 BTW, most forum software is pretty much unreadable on small, mobile
 screens because all the real estate is consumed by the borders, avatars,
 decorations, gee-gaws, etc. Even text-only reddit blows on the small
 screen because the text refuses to reflow.

Then that's just bad design. If the forum is designed correctly there won't be any problem.

Here's a typical example: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=72850.0 Check out all of the vertical space consumed by a 2 word message. No threading view that I can find. There's a "Mark Unread" button, but that applies to the entire thread, not individual messages. Here's another: http://www.gamedev.net/topic/615737-concave-polygon-to-convex-polygons/page__pid__4887554#entry4887554 Same problems. http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/reader_feedback/public/display.php?source_id=2016875109&source_name=mbase Note the teeny tiny amount of the screen that is for message text. http://science.slashdot.org/story/11/11/28/0050228/muslim-medical-students-boycott-darwin-lectures At least it's got a real threaded view. But no way to tell what you've read, so if you come back to an active topic after an hour or two, it's a real pain trying to figure out what you've read and what you haven't. I rarely bother to load a topic more than once because of this. Same goes for reddit.
Nov 28 2011
next sibling parent reply Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-11-28 11:55, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 11/27/2011 11:55 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 Then that's just bad design. If the forum is designed correctly there
 won't be
 any problem.

Here's a typical example: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=72850.0 Check out all of the vertical space consumed by a 2 word message. No threading view that I can find. There's a "Mark Unread" button, but that applies to the entire thread, not individual messages. Here's another: http://www.gamedev.net/topic/615737-concave-polygon-to-convex-polygons/page__pid__4887554#entry4887554 Same problems. http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/reader_feedback/public/display.php?source_id=2016875109&source_name=mbase Note the teeny tiny amount of the screen that is for message text. http://science.slashdot.org/story/11/11/28/0050228/muslim-medical-students-boycott-darwin-lectures At least it's got a real threaded view. But no way to tell what you've read, so if you come back to an active topic after an hour or two, it's a real pain trying to figure out what you've read and what you haven't. I rarely bother to load a topic more than once because of this. Same goes for reddit.

I know that most of the forums look like this. But what says that they have to? I'm just trying to say that a forum doesn't have to look like these examples. You also complained how the forum sites doesn't work on a small screen. Have a look at this site: http://upperdog.se/ I know this site is not a forum but the content flows really nice when you resize the browser window to a smaller size and it works great on mobile devices. I don't see any reason why these techniques can't be implemented on a forum. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 28 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/28/2011 5:33 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I know that most of the forums look like this. But what says that they have to?
 I'm just trying to say that a forum doesn't have to look like these examples.

 You also complained how the forum sites doesn't work on a small screen. Have a
 look at this site:

 http://upperdog.se/

 I know this site is not a forum but the content flows really nice when you
 resize the browser window to a smaller size and it works great on mobile
 devices. I don't see any reason why these techniques can't be implemented on a
 forum.

I don't see any reason, either. It's why I said that forum software writers just don't get it :-)
Nov 28 2011
next sibling parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <usefirstnameinstead-newsgroup unknownbrackets.org> writes:
That's just designers who don't get it.  They're starting to nowadays.

I remember the WAP, I-mode, and etc. interfaces in SMF worked just fine 
on small screens.  Nowadays there are specialized iPhone interfaces. 
And of course skins that scale fine.

In contrast, I haven't a clue how to use NNTP on my iPhone.  Go figure.

-[Unknown]


On 11/28/2011 11:43 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 11/28/2011 5:33 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I know that most of the forums look like this. But what says that they
 have to?
 I'm just trying to say that a forum doesn't have to look like these
 examples.

 You also complained how the forum sites doesn't work on a small
 screen. Have a
 look at this site:

 http://upperdog.se/

 I know this site is not a forum but the content flows really nice when
 you
 resize the browser window to a smaller size and it works great on mobile
 devices. I don't see any reason why these techniques can't be
 implemented on a
 forum.

I don't see any reason, either. It's why I said that forum software writers just don't get it :-)

Nov 28 2011
parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/28/2011 11:08 PM, Unknown W. Brackets wrote:
 In contrast, I haven't a clue how to use NNTP on my iPhone. Go figure.

There is an NNTP newsreader app on the iphone, but the reviews on it say it sucks. I haven't tried it. With the teeny screen on the iphone, I would suspect that NNTP would be a big winner, as it is minimalist (and it is also pretty light on bandwidth consumption).
Nov 29 2011
next sibling parent reply "Unknown W. Brackets" <usefirstnameinstead-newsgroup unknownbrackets.org> writes:
Walter,

Well, maybe, but I know that the developer who worked on the WAP and 
I-mode interfaces for the web forum software I developed was *extremely* 
concerned about the fact that he paid by like the kilobyte.

He also used it (after developing it) quite a bit, and my understanding 
was that it was fairly lightweight.

It didn't have avatars (which I think are cruft; I don't use them on 
forums), signatures (also cruft, in emails and newsgroups too.)  I think 
it (but I'm not sure, I didn't have a phone at the time) automatically 
stripped second-level quotes too, which NNTP probably wouldn't do.

Is NNTP even gzipped?  I expect it isn't (and can't find any 
contradiction in a quick peek at the RFCs), which would mean it's 
definitely not impossible that HTML could win.  But, I haven't really 
read those RFCs, so I could be wrong.

-[Unknown]


On 11/29/2011 12:20 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 11/28/2011 11:08 PM, Unknown W. Brackets wrote:
 In contrast, I haven't a clue how to use NNTP on my iPhone. Go figure.

There is an NNTP newsreader app on the iphone, but the reviews on it say it sucks. I haven't tried it. With the teeny screen on the iphone, I would suspect that NNTP would be a big winner, as it is minimalist (and it is also pretty light on bandwidth consumption).

Nov 29 2011
parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/29/2011 1:16 AM, Unknown W. Brackets wrote:
 Well, maybe, but I know that the developer who worked on the WAP and I-mode
 interfaces for the web forum software I developed was *extremely* concerned
 about the fact that he paid by like the kilobyte.

 He also used it (after developing it) quite a bit, and my understanding was
that
 it was fairly lightweight.

 It didn't have avatars (which I think are cruft; I don't use them on forums),
 signatures (also cruft, in emails and newsgroups too.) I think it (but I'm not
 sure, I didn't have a phone at the time) automatically stripped second-level
 quotes too, which NNTP probably wouldn't do.

 Is NNTP even gzipped? I expect it isn't (and can't find any contradiction in a
 quick peek at the RFCs), which would mean it's definitely not impossible that
 HTML could win. But, I haven't really read those RFCs, so I could be wrong.

I don't know if NNTP is compressed or not. But consider that NNTP was developed in the days of 110 baud data transmission (that's 11 characters per second).
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, November 29, 2011 08:58:59 Sean Kelly wrote:
 The iPhone news reader is passable but not great. I can't do usenet from
 work though (firewall) so I've long since moved to using Brad's email
 forwarder. With IMAP that keeps everything in sync across machines too. Too
 bad most email clients don't do the tree threaded view.

Kmail does (which is what I use), and I'm pretty sure that Thunderbird does. But a tree-view is definitely a must for a decent e-mail client IMHO. I've definitely found that IMAP is the way to go though, since it syncs the view across machines, and I don't know how to get that with a newsgroup client even if it works at both work and home (and wherever else you'd need to sync). - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 29 2011
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/29/2011 10:52 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Tuesday, November 29, 2011 08:58:59 Sean Kelly wrote:
 The iPhone news reader is passable but not great. I can't do usenet from
 work though (firewall) so I've long since moved to using Brad's email
 forwarder. With IMAP that keeps everything in sync across machines too. Too
 bad most email clients don't do the tree threaded view.

Kmail does (which is what I use), and I'm pretty sure that Thunderbird does.

I can confirm that Thunderbird does.
Nov 29 2011
next sibling parent reply Kai Meyer <kai unixlords.com> writes:
On 11/29/2011 01:08 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 11/29/2011 10:52 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Tuesday, November 29, 2011 08:58:59 Sean Kelly wrote:
 The iPhone news reader is passable but not great. I can't do usenet from
 work though (firewall) so I've long since moved to using Brad's email
 forwarder. With IMAP that keeps everything in sync across machines
 too. Too
 bad most email clients don't do the tree threaded view.

Kmail does (which is what I use), and I'm pretty sure that Thunderbird does.

I can confirm that Thunderbird does.

There's no reason why we can't use the email forwarder to get a web-based threaded view of the news group. But it seems a bit of a hoop to jump through for new users. I think the major complaint is new recruits, and what they are comfortable with. It sounds more and more like the features Walter wants are not readily available to individuals stopping by for the first 10 times, unless they are willing to but some time into figuring out (for themselves) which tools are best to use news groups with. I think the new comer is becoming more and more web-centric, and wants to have everything run in the browser. I have a hard time convincing people to use Thunderbird over Gmail or RoundCube, because they may want to check their email on more than one computer, and that next computer may not have Thunderbird already setup. If we want to make new comers more comfortable, there is an argument for having a Forum for them. New comers are often sent to D.learn to start, and D.learn seems to carry much different conversations than the D newsgroup. They tend to be question and answer, which a Forum is great for (dare I say created for.) While I sympathize with Walter's desire to not create a separate community, there is already a division between those who are comfortable posting on D, and those comfortable posting on D.learn. I think converting D.learn to a Forum could benefit the community by being more attractive to younger/newer programmers. When they want to get serious, they can spend the 10 minutes it takes to configure an NNTP client, and feel it was time worth spent. -Kai Meyer
Nov 29 2011
parent reply Kai Meyer <kai unixlords.com> writes:
On 11/29/2011 02:34 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Tuesday, November 29, 2011 14:25:33 Kai Meyer wrote:
 On 11/29/2011 01:08 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 11/29/2011 10:52 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Tuesday, November 29, 2011 08:58:59 Sean Kelly wrote:
 The iPhone news reader is passable but not great. I can't do usenet
 from work though (firewall) so I've long since moved to using
 Brad's email forwarder. With IMAP that keeps everything in sync
 across machines too. Too
 bad most email clients don't do the tree threaded view.

Kmail does (which is what I use), and I'm pretty sure that Thunderbird does.

I can confirm that Thunderbird does.

Roundcube Webmail does it as well. Gmail does it too.

LOL. Not to be rude, but gmail doesn't even come close. Its idea of threads is a joke as far as mailing lists go. It only works for conversations which are between two people. It has no tree structure at all. Also, gmail never sends you e-mails which were sent to the list by you, which further screws up the tree even if you use a client which will show proper trees. gmail is horrible for mailing lists IMHO. - Jonathan M Davis

have clients and co-workers that swear by the "threaded" nature of Gmail. I tend to agree with you, but that's because I've been using a "real" mail client for a decade. What you cut your teeth on is sometimes hard to get over :) Hence, my Thunderbird addiction.....
Nov 29 2011
next sibling parent Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
I don't use a mail client. I use a mail server :)

Well, actually, I use both, and it's made email much more useful
than it ever was before.

My public email address forwards to a private one, which is
delivered directly to my home computer.

As soon as it arrives, I get a beep out of the pc speaker, and can
head into the mail client (I use mutt inside gnu screen) to read them
in real time, and I can of course reply immediately too.

If I want to access my mail from a separate computer? I just ssh
into the house, and screen -d -r it.

The only problem remotely is if people email me messages.
They are extremely slow on remote X. I usually just save them to
a web directory and view them in a browser.


I read this newsgroup through the mail interface too, so same thing
with it, except for whatever reason, the replies only work half the time!


Anyway, it's quite efficient. I go through hundreds of emails a day, and
never feel particularly burdened by it.

It's also faster and more reliably to reach me by email than it is
by telephone or instant message!
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling parent reply "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, November 29, 2011 16:54:40 Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 I don't use a mail client. I use a mail server :)
 
 Well, actually, I use both, and it's made email much more useful
 than it ever was before.
 
 My public email address forwards to a private one, which is
 delivered directly to my home computer.
 
 As soon as it arrives, I get a beep out of the pc speaker, and can
 head into the mail client (I use mutt inside gnu screen) to read them
 in real time, and I can of course reply immediately too.
 
 If I want to access my mail from a separate computer? I just ssh
 into the house, and screen -d -r it.
 
 The only problem remotely is if people email me messages.
 They are extremely slow on remote X. I usually just save them to
 a web directory and view them in a browser.
 
 
 I read this newsgroup through the mail interface too, so same thing
 with it, except for whatever reason, the replies only work half the time!
 
 
 Anyway, it's quite efficient. I go through hundreds of emails a day, and
 never feel particularly burdened by it.
 
 It's also faster and more reliably to reach me by email than it is
 by telephone or instant message!

While that's all very cool, I fail to see what exactly that's buying you over using an external e-mail service with IMAP and a local mail client such as kmail or Thunderbird. Obviously, you like it a lot, but it seems to me like a lot of work for no extra benefit. - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 29 2011
parent Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
Jonathan M Davis Wrote:
 Obviously, you like it a lot, but it seems to me like a 
 lot of work for no extra benefit.

It's barely any work at all if you use Linux; they often come with a mail server and ssh daemon anyway. Best of all, mutt actually opens when you run it, and responds when you interact with it. More than I can say about Thunderbird. (ok I exaggerate, but Thunderbird is seriously slow and hard to use.)
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling parent "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> writes:
On Tuesday, November 29, 2011 14:25:33 Kai Meyer wrote:
 On 11/29/2011 01:08 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 11/29/2011 10:52 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Tuesday, November 29, 2011 08:58:59 Sean Kelly wrote:
 The iPhone news reader is passable but not great. I can't do usenet
 from work though (firewall) so I've long since moved to using
 Brad's email forwarder. With IMAP that keeps everything in sync
 across machines too. Too
 bad most email clients don't do the tree threaded view.

Kmail does (which is what I use), and I'm pretty sure that Thunderbird does.

I can confirm that Thunderbird does.

Roundcube Webmail does it as well. Gmail does it too.

LOL. Not to be rude, but gmail doesn't even come close. Its idea of threads is a joke as far as mailing lists go. It only works for conversations which are between two people. It has no tree structure at all. Also, gmail never sends you e-mails which were sent to the list by you, which further screws up the tree even if you use a client which will show proper trees. gmail is horrible for mailing lists IMHO. - Jonathan M Davis
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-11-29 19:52, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Tuesday, November 29, 2011 08:58:59 Sean Kelly wrote:
 The iPhone news reader is passable but not great. I can't do usenet from
 work though (firewall) so I've long since moved to using Brad's email
 forwarder. With IMAP that keeps everything in sync across machines too. Too
 bad most email clients don't do the tree threaded view.

Kmail does (which is what I use), and I'm pretty sure that Thunderbird does. But a tree-view is definitely a must for a decent e-mail client IMHO. I've definitely found that IMAP is the way to go though, since it syncs the view across machines, and I don't know how to get that with a newsgroup client even if it works at both work and home (and wherever else you'd need to sync). - Jonathan M Davis

Thunderbird does it, at least for NNTP. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-11-29 21:30, Gour wrote:
 On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 13:52:24 -0500
 "Jonathan M Davis"<jmdavisProg gmx.com>  wrote:

 and I don't know how to get that with a newsgroup client even if it
 works at both work and home (and wherever else you'd need to sync).

ssh and some rsync magic between two machines? I took advantage of this http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GnusSync when using Emacs/Gnus. Sincerely, Gour

Dropbox and a symlink took care of it for me. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling parent bcs <bcs example.com> writes:
On 11/29/2011 10:52 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Tuesday, November 29, 2011 08:58:59 Sean Kelly wrote:
 The iPhone news reader is passable but not great. I can't do usenet from
 work though (firewall) so I've long since moved to using Brad's email
 forwarder. With IMAP that keeps everything in sync across machines too. Too
 bad most email clients don't do the tree threaded view.

Kmail does (which is what I use), and I'm pretty sure that Thunderbird does. But a tree-view is definitely a must for a decent e-mail client IMHO. I've definitely found that IMAP is the way to go though, since it syncs the view across machines, and I don't know how to get that with a newsgroup client even if it works at both work and home (and wherever else you'd need to sync). - Jonathan M Davis

Given the similarity of e-mail and NNTP post, I wonder what it would take to make an IMAP/NNTP bridge that allow any email client to be used as an NNTP client.
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling parent Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> writes:
On Nov 29, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Gour wrote:

 On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 13:52:24 -0500
 "Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> wrote:
=20
 and I don't know how to get that with a newsgroup client even if it
 works at both work and home (and wherever else you'd need to sync).

ssh and some rsync magic between two machines?

These days I'd try setting up my news reader to load configs from a = DropBox or other cloud storage device.=
Nov 30 2011
prev sibling parent Jacob Carlborg <doob me.com> writes:
On 2011-11-28 20:43, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 11/28/2011 5:33 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 I know that most of the forums look like this. But what says that they
 have to?
 I'm just trying to say that a forum doesn't have to look like these
 examples.

 You also complained how the forum sites doesn't work on a small
 screen. Have a
 look at this site:

 http://upperdog.se/

 I know this site is not a forum but the content flows really nice when
 you
 resize the browser window to a smaller size and it works great on mobile
 devices. I don't see any reason why these techniques can't be
 implemented on a
 forum.

I don't see any reason, either. It's why I said that forum software writers just don't get it :-)

Hehe :) -- /Jacob Carlborg
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling parent reply Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
Walter Bright Wrote:

 On 11/27/2011 11:55 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-11-27 23:30, Walter Bright wrote:
 Those are all desirable properties. But the forum software I've seen
 throws out what's good about NNTP news forums:

 1. Threaded view
 2. Being able to mark messages as "read"
 3. Being able to quickly scan read vs unread

Just because this may be true for most of the forums doesn't mean it needs to be true if d-p-l.org gets a new forum.
 BTW, most forum software is pretty much unreadable on small, mobile
 screens because all the real estate is consumed by the borders, avatars,
 decorations, gee-gaws, etc. Even text-only reddit blows on the small
 screen because the text refuses to reflow.

Then that's just bad design. If the forum is designed correctly there won't be any problem.

Here's a typical example: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=72850.0 Check out all of the vertical space consumed by a 2 word message.

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.general/70244 - and this is not a limit, I've seen a 2 word message three times as bigger.
 No threading 
 view that I can find. There's a "Mark Unread" button, but that applies to the 
 entire thread, not individual messages.
 
 Here's another:
 
 http://www.gamedev.net/topic/615737-concave-polygon-to-convex-polygons/page__pid__4887554#entry4887554
 
 Same problems.
 
 http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/reader_feedback/public/display.php?source_id=2016875109&source_name=mbase
 
 Note the teeny tiny amount of the screen that is for message text.
 
 http://science.slashdot.org/story/11/11/28/0050228/muslim-medical-students-boycott-darwin-lectures
 
 At least it's got a real threaded view. But no way to tell what you've read,
so 
 if you come back to an active topic after an hour or two, it's a real pain 
 trying to figure out what you've read and what you haven't. I rarely bother to 
 load a topic more than once because of this. Same goes for reddit.

Nov 28 2011
parent Timon Gehr <timon.gehr gmx.ch> writes:
On 11/28/2011 09:27 PM, Kagamin wrote:
 Walter Bright Wrote:

 On 11/27/2011 11:55 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
 On 2011-11-27 23:30, Walter Bright wrote:
 Those are all desirable properties. But the forum software I've seen
 throws out what's good about NNTP news forums:

 1. Threaded view
 2. Being able to mark messages as "read"
 3. Being able to quickly scan read vs unread

Just because this may be true for most of the forums doesn't mean it needs to be true if d-p-l.org gets a new forum.
 BTW, most forum software is pretty much unreadable on small, mobile
 screens because all the real estate is consumed by the borders, avatars,
 decorations, gee-gaws, etc. Even text-only reddit blows on the small
 screen because the text refuses to reflow.

Then that's just bad design. If the forum is designed correctly there won't be any problem.

Here's a typical example: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=72850.0 Check out all of the vertical space consumed by a 2 word message.

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.d.general/70244 - and this is not a limit, I've seen a 2 word message three times as bigger.

I have two windows, one to browse the messages and one to display the messages.
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Alexey Veselovsky <alexey.veselovsky gmail.com> writes:
But on mobile devices (such as smartphone) the mainstream is not
web-apps via browser. Mainstream is small usable native apps for each
services. For example: newsreader :-)
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Russel Winder <russel russel.org.uk> writes:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 13:01 -0500, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
[...]
=20
 phpBB is crap. Actually, anything PHP is crap.

Isn't that demeaning to crap which has the ability to fertilize things and allow new life to spring forth. Unlike PHP which leads to websites that are always open to hacking? ;-) --=20 Russel. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.winder ekiga.n= et 41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: russel russel.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
On 11/27/2011 10:24 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
 Walter Bright Wrote:
 They just don't get what a threaded view is.

It's not a difficult concept. Maybe there's some web forum authors who don't get it, but I'm sure a lot of them do. And they probably also know why it is a godawful misfeature, which is why they didn't implement it. Sometimes, people are well aware of a concept, and reject it on technical grounds or other issues of merit. It really doesn't help any discussion when you assume the other side are just a bunch of idiots who obviously haven't seen the light.

That goes both ways. I too greatly prefer threaded views. I use it exclusively when reading all my mail, which also fully (short of buggy mail senders) maintains the 'proper' threading. Clearly this is a matter of personal choice and not something that's clearly right or clearly wrong. Pretending it is just perpetuates the argument. Not allowing the user to choose their preferred navigation / reading / browsing style necessarily restricts the audience to the set of people that prefer the tool author's preferred style. Later, Brad
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:11:35 +0200, Jude <10equals2 gmail.com> wrote:

 I must apologize, the rant is over.
 Walter.respect--;

Woah, dude. Where did Walter say that his personal opinion on forum software has anything to do with what gets used/linked from d-p-l.org etc.? I'm not even sure what you're arguing about - are you trying to disprove a subjective opinion? I, for one, respect his opinion regarding threaded views as much as yours, and value such feedback highly. It's very insightful when you're writing something that tries to make both camps happy. I think you've mistaken genuine frustration for arrogance. Imagine being used to a user interface idiom which you perceive as vastly more productive, and then have most of the world use a dumbed-down alternative due to the common denominator / established conventions (which, btw, I think is the cause here - apathy rather than ignorance). -- Best regards, Vladimir mailto:vladimir thecybershadow.net
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent so <so so.so> writes:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:11:35 +0200, Jude <10equals2 gmail.com> wrote:

 "Forums are lame and just "DON'T GET IT" and I don't like them and
 EVERYONE must agree that my method is superior and use my preferred
 method" is NOT a valid reason.

 Most people don't care about your holy wars.
 I'm done with this topic, it just makes me lose faith in humanity.

If you are in the mood of losing faith in humanity, go do it on something worthwhile like the wars and famine. Not on something insignificant like two ideas on one thing.
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent so <so so.so> writes:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 22:34:23 +0200, Jimmy Cao <jcao219 gmail.com> wrote:

 Everything is moving to the cloud and to the web.  Many people, including
 me, only use the web interface for webmail providers like Gmail now.  To
 me, Thunderbird and Outlook are less desirable now that there's a web
 interface that you can access with all the computers that you use every
 day.  Now, your "all-in-one" browser can replace all those scattered
 background processes.

 Why are online bulletin boards/forums attractive?

    - The entire interface is designed for message board communication.   
 You
    can navigate easily as the interface organizes conversations into  
 pages.
     For example, you can just click on a link and you will find all the  
 that
    you yourself started.
    - The interface allows you to permalink individual posts and share  
 them.
    - The capability to edit posts.  This is extremely useful and a major
    advantage.
    - Sticky posts - Posts that are very important and should be locked at
    the top so that they are easily accessible.
    - Profiles - you can visit a person's profile to learn more about him.
     This person can set his own avatar, his contact details, and even his
    website.
    - Convenient and fully-featured searching - you can do a search even  
 if
    you are a new member of the forum.  A good web interface or search  
 engine
    on a NG allows this, but not with the same capabilities.
    - Post count (friendly competition and statistics)
    - Better hierarchy of forums - you have forums and subforums.
    - Private messaging.  Sure, you can do this via email, but with a  
 forum,
    you have your own private message inbox for better organization and  
 access.
    - Easier moderation - I would imagine that admins can delete or move
    posts much easier on a forum.
    - Sometimes the interface will tell you if someone is online or not.
     You can also see the amount of people who are viewing a subforum or a
    thread.
    - Extensive formatting options - colors, graphic smilies, quotes, code
    highlighting with GeSHi, etc.  By the way, a while back I submitted an
    updated D syntax highlighting guide to GeSHi, so eventually Wikipedia  
 and
    Wikibooks might highlight D2 fully, too.

Nobody is against web interface and we also have it (ugly and sometimes useless but we still do), what we are against is the replacement of newsgroups with something lesser like forums. Private messaging... quite the opposite i want contributors more open about what they think and talk everything here.
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply so <so so.so> writes:
I think you believe something i would say quite naive,
as everyone have the best intentions, as they just fight for what they  
believe right.
Maybe it was the case where we were in caves, it is not now.

Everything boils down to one thing IMO, we live in a structure made of  
with the worst of the intentions.
We accumulate power to a single place and every now and then give it to a  
mad puppet.
(never been a decent man had that power, why would a decent man want that  
kind of power?)
They are doing what they were told, destroying everything in their way,  
and we have to live with its consequences because we are that stupid.
They are smart people, far smarter than the mess. They are not racist but  
they profit from racism.
It is not the clash of opinions, it never was, it is just the clash of  
profit.
It was the clash of opinions for dummies like us who just go and die for  
them.
Nov 28 2011
parent Bane <branimir.milosavljevic gmail.com> writes:
so Wrote:

 I think you believe something i would say quite naive,
 as everyone have the best intentions, as they just fight for what they  
 believe right.
 Maybe it was the case where we were in caves, it is not now.
 
 Everything boils down to one thing IMO, we live in a structure made of  
 with the worst of the intentions.
 We accumulate power to a single place and every now and then give it to a  
 mad puppet.
 (never been a decent man had that power, why would a decent man want that  
 kind of power?)
 They are doing what they were told, destroying everything in their way,  
 and we have to live with its consequences because we are that stupid.
 They are smart people, far smarter than the mess. They are not racist but  
 they profit from racism.
 It is not the clash of opinions, it never was, it is just the clash of  
 profit.

Actually, I believe this too. It almost always rich wanting to get richer, so they use their political or religious influence (which they have because of their money) to make up some "reason" people would go to war so they can make more money out of it. They are real psychopaths pulling the strings on human civilization. Its all about money.
 It was the clash of opinions for dummies like us who just go and die for  
 them.

Nov 28 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent so <so so.so> writes:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:26:19 +0200, Jude <10equals2 gmail.com> wrote:

 Thread continues on [OT] for SO

Shhh, don't worry. Nobody can see us deep down here!
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Marco Leise" <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am 28.11.2011, 09:35 Uhr, schrieb Jude <10equals2 gmail.com>:

 On 11/28/2011 02:10 AM, so wrote:
 On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:11:35 +0200, Jude <10equals2 gmail.com>
 wrote:

 "Forums are lame and just "DON'T GET IT" and I don't like them
 and EVERYONE must agree that my method is superior and use my
 preferred method" is NOT a valid reason.

 Most people don't care about your holy wars. I'm done with this
 topic, it just makes me lose faith in humanity.

If you are in the mood of losing faith in humanity, go do it on something worthwhile like the wars and famine. Not on something insignificant like two ideas on one thing.

It's not the two ideas on one thing that bothered me, it was (admittedly my mistaken) perceived attitude about it. Wars, Famine? They all basically boil down to one thing: Two people, (or representatives of two people) disagree. But both are so absolutely certain that they are correct, they do not even attempt to look at the other side of the coin. In fact, they will blatantly refuse to even acknowledge the fact that there is a possibility that they could be wrong. There will be no compromise, not without threats to accompany it. Dictators, suicide bombings, the aforementioned wars and famine and rape and murder... they all stem from one particular source. I'm right, my path is holy, what you are doing offends me and therefore I will restrict your right to do so. We want your resources, and since we believe that might is right, we will take it without a second thought to how you feel about this. My people are superior to yours and therefore should have the right to enslave you and do with you as we see fit. My people are genetically superior to yours and therefore we will eliminate you for the benefit of mankind(read as ourselves). (it's not a thread without a hitler reference.) I deserve that apple on the cart, so I take it without a second thought to how it might affect the cart owner. It all stems from a misguided sense of superiority. A lot of people disagree with me on this, but I haven't seen a compelling argument against it yet. So when you say that if I want to lose faith in humanity, to look at x, or y. I think that deep down, the core of the problem is almost always the exact same thing. selfishness, arrogance, and a belief of superiority. I just like to call it judgement. Everything else is just variations on a theme.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEKgYKpEJ3o
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply so <so so.so> writes:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:44:51 +0200, Kagamin <spam here.lot> wrote:

 Some forums even have plugins that merge consecutive posts from the same  
 author.

As i was thinking it can't get any worse, you proved me wrong.
 In Soviet Russia... errm... I mean with linear chronological view you  
 do. Think of it as a novel: it has a linear structure, a bunch of plot  
 threads and they intertwine in chronological order. And it's usually not  
 a problem to track them simultaneously.

Except it has noting remotely resembles a novel, where the author plots to a final common goal, which happens to be written/thought long before the actual writing.
 Chronological order also helps to understand people. This way posts tend  
 to be grouped by author (remember you've posted 4 messages in a row to  
 this topic). This way one can better understand you as your thoughts are  
 concentrated in one place rather than scattered all over sub-threads:
 will all information at hands it's easier to figure out your viewpoint  
 in all details.

A suggestion, use threaded view and you don't need to "understand" any of this, you just see them without any effort.
Nov 28 2011
next sibling parent Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
so Wrote:

 Except it has noting remotely resembles a novel, where the author plots to  
 a final common goal,
 which happens to be written/thought long before the actual writing.

There's no visible difference if the novel runs for decades.
 Chronological order also helps to understand people. This way posts tend  
 to be grouped by author (remember you've posted 4 messages in a row to  
 this topic). This way one can better understand you as your thoughts are  
 concentrated in one place rather than scattered all over sub-threads:
 will all information at hands it's easier to figure out your viewpoint  
 in all details.

A suggestion, use threaded view and you don't need to "understand" any of this, you just see them without any effort.

This is not a solution even for this particular problem, and people do not speak only about theaded and linear views anyway.
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling parent Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
so Wrote:

 As i was thinking it can't get any worse, you proved me wrong.

For linear chronological view it's a natural thing. Also: 1. Messy software screws your threads for real. In a forum a post ends up right where it belongs to: messy clients are not a problem for chronological order. 2. "Oops, I deleted your post in my Pan client and don't know how to get it back, I'll just post reply somewhere". With forum this is just impossible: posts are on the server.
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Marco Leise" <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am 29.11.2011, 08:08 Uhr, schrieb Unknown W. Brackets  
<usefirstnameinstead-newsgroup unknownbrackets.org>:

 In contrast, I haven't a clue how to use NNTP on my iPhone.  Go figure.

The first iPhone didn't even support copy&paste iirc. On the other hand, this app may work for you: http://www.caledonia.net/blog/?p=173
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 09:06:06 +0200, Unknown W. Brackets  
<usefirstnameinstead-newsgroup unknownbrackets.org> wrote:

 Walter,

 Well, having authored web forum software, I suppose I'll make a few  
 remarks here.  I seem to have gotten hit by a stray "forum software  
 writers (that's me) just don't get it."

 1. Well, I get threads, I really do.  I understand their usefulness, and  
 how sometimes it's beneficial to completely ignore a branch - for  
 example, someone reporting an issue with a release on FreeBSD, that  
 doesn't affect me and I don't care about.

 That said, I must say it's a relatively artificial form of conversation.  
   It's annoying, quite frankly.  It's not that I don't get it, I just  
 don't *like* it.

Aren't you contradicting yourself? All merits of using some alternatives may become fully apparent only after extended use, and attempts to switch back. Productivity gains are often hard to quantify, thus reports of such can be easily confused with bias (it goes both ways, of course). I don't see how you can objectively say that linear conversations are less "artificial" than threaded ones.
 I'm not alone.  Tons of other people have abandoned this artificial  
 communication format, not because they're stupid or "the masses" or they  
 don't get it, but simply because the cost benefit is not, generally  
 there.

What cost? Perhaps this is all about suboptimal UIs?
 Nevertheless, I'll point out that vBulletin does, in fact, have this  
 feature, although I can't even remember that last time I saw someone use  
 it.  Instead they often try "hybrid" mode, which is a joke.  If you saw  
 that, you'd assume no one gets it.

I just tried the threaded mode. Compared to a real newsreader, it is also a joke.
 2. I can't speak to all forum software, since several years ago I'm  
 pretty sure they just remembered the latest timestamp of the latest post  
 when you last visited.

 But the forum software I was involved in, SMF, absolutely stores more  
 detail than just the topic being read or not.  And I'd imagine  
 vBulletin, as well, stores it per post in threaded mode.

It does not. Major forum software, including SMF (I just checked the source), store the last post ID that you've seen in a thread.
 3. Ignoring the comments about email replies (since they are easy  
 fodder), and returning to the original: many forum softwares (including  
 my own) due indeed provide a way to easily see which posts or topics you  
 have or have not read.

Why do you even mention topics? It's clear as day that major forums save which threads you haven't read in their entirety, but not individual posts.
 I'll note that I use Gmail proudly and often these days.

Be careful with that pride. They say it blinds. -- Best regards, Vladimir mailto:vladimir thecybershadow.net
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 10:39:35 +0200, Unknown W. Brackets  
<usefirstnameinstead-newsgroup unknownbrackets.org> wrote:

 Well, when I think "web forum software" I think installable.

Reddit and SlashDot are open-source. I think the distinction you're looking for is "discussion forum" vs. "comment system". Reddit, Digg, SlashDot and possibly others fall into that category. -- Best regards, Vladimir mailto:vladimir thecybershadow.net
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 11:02:59 +0200, Unknown W. Brackets  
<usefirstnameinstead-newsgroup unknownbrackets.org> wrote:

 I've definitely used threaded conversation in the past.  In fact, I used  
 to think it was much better than linear, quite so.  But, then I used  
 linear for quite some time and realized something simple: threaded is  
 just a pain, and only barely better.

 I'd rather have 90+% the utility with less than 50% the pain.  Far more  
 productive IMHO.  And to be clear, I don't really like forums in general  
 (despite developing them) threaded or not, neither newsgroups.  But they  
 serve a purpose.

What I'm concerned about, is that based on your recommendation of vBulletin's threaded UI, you may have simply experienced poor UI? For example, vBulletin only dedicates a measly amount of screen space to the thread view. Newsreaders typically give it half of the application area, with the ability to resize it to preference. Another important element is keyboard navigation. While scrolling and the occasional "next page" click is all that suffices in linear views, good newsreaders should have simple and accessible keyboard shortcuts. For example, in Opera pressing Space will scroll down the current message, or - if there's nothing more to scroll - jump to the next unread message.
 Well, if I'm talking in a meeting at work, the conversation follows a  
 path.  If people bring up old information, that happens in a linear  
 fashion, not a branching one.  I don't think I've ever communicated in  
 any non-linear way.  Even when writing letters, I do so very linearly.

 I find imposing branching to be an artificial supplement to a natural  
 conversation.  That's not to imply linear forum conversations in text  
 are not at all artificial (intonations, etc. are a great example) - just  
 that they are less so.

 I've also participated in debate, public speaking, general meetings, and  
 interviewing.  All of these are highly linear, or at least I think so.

The analogy to speech only holds for as long as you assume that only one person is speaking at the same time. Threads often diverge in multiple unrelated conversations, often with a smaller subset of participants - something like a rowdy classroom. In linear views, the noise becomes annoying; moderators commonly have the responsibility to separate conversations that have diverged too much.
 What cost? Perhaps this is all about suboptimal UIs?

Productivity cost. The cost of dealing with it (even if it's small), replying in the right places, looking back in the right places for things you remember, etc. Call it laziness if you will, I guess.

Hmm... As opposed to ignoring sub-threads you're not interested about? Well, as I mentioned earlier, this is not something that can be objectively argued about. However, we should take into account that conversations carried out on the same software and protocols can take a wide variety of formats - going from a linear e-mail dialogue between only two participants, to a busy newsgroup with a post coming in every few minutes and threads exploding within hours. A linear view is certainly more appropriate for the majority of e-mail users.
 I just tried the threaded mode. Compared to a real newsreader, it is
 also a joke.

Well, I haven't used it in a while, but I don't recall it being terribly different from Thunderbird, which is what I use for this newsgroup, in interface or features (and it was probably more stable, although Thunderbird hasn't been crashing as much these days.)

It suffers from the same problems as other forums (does not remember individual read posts), but also has a rather clumsy UI.
 That's not at all true.  Try this, then:

Right, I knew that - failed to properly express myself:
 It does not. Major forum software, including SMF (I just checked the
 source), store the last post ID that you've seen in a thread.


 I also can tell you from experience that if they were presented as such,  
 people would be confused and complain.  Actually, I do agree lots is  
 wrong about forum software (and also about newsgroups too), but so much  
 is "set in stone" by how people are used to using it.  This isn't a new  
 problem.

You're contradicting yourself again... earlier you said:
 not because they're stupid or "the masses" or they don't get it

But I agree that Joe Average doesn't need threading. Still, choice is good, as the presence of choice opens the doors for others to discover subjectively-superior ways of communication. :) -- Best regards, Vladimir mailto:vladimir thecybershadow.net
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 12:28:20 +0200, Unknown W. Brackets  
<usefirstnameinstead-newsgroup unknownbrackets.org> wrote:

 Comments interpolated below.

I believe this is the common way to reply to a post on a newsgroup :)
 These are both very reasonable criticisms.  But, the size of the tree  
 can be trivially increased (if installing it as software, and  
 customizing the skin.)

I wouldn't call making custom skins "trivial"...
 Well, I think a group of reasonable can self-moderate, to a large  
 degree, and I've seen it happen.

 I don't really think disorganization is a benefit, myself.  I think  
 having a clear structure (ironically) to the conversation in a linear  
 format is a benefit.

 Also, since people who (very arguably) are more likely to self moderate  
 are also the primary audience for newsgroups (being that less tech savvy  
 people don't bother, typically), I don't really think it's a problem  
 worth trying to solve.

But why would you consider subthreads undesirable? In a threaded view, subthreads you are not interested in are a non-issue. What you call "self moderation" seems to me like an artificial restriction that has no reason to be there. Netiquette still asks that posters substantially diverging from the current subject to amend the subject line, and - if entirely off-topic discussion is unavoidable - mark it as such with the [OT] tag.
 I'll note that I don't really care for things like Reddit/Slashdot, and  
 usually use forums to discuss things like in these newsgroups: code,  
 ideas, methodologies, issues/feedback, projects, etc.  Directed,  
 interesting things.  Not just a free-for-all of thoughts on why a  
 snail's shell was painted with bright colors by someone.  Those need  
 threading.

Yes, context matters a lot.
 Sure, I agree.  Every human is biased in some way, and there exist  
 separate solutions not only to refine and innovate and specialize, but  
 also for the different ways people think and interact.

"Bias" doesn't have much meaning when there is no norm. The reality is that people have varying expectations based on their past experiences and on the circumstances at hand. The only correct course of action is to accept and take into account all of these factors, without excuses or prejudice, and figure out a solution that accommodates most users. In our case, it's clear that we have users who prefer linear and threaded views, and web-based vs. dedicated UIs - therefore, the solution is obvious: choice.
 But I agree that Joe Average doesn't need threading. Still, choice is
 good, as the presence of choice opens the doors for others to discover
 subjectively-superior ways of communication. :)

Sure, but I just don't think it's fair to say that people don't use threading because they "don't get it," or that people who want D discussion to happen with more modernly open means of involvement are "less techy."

Well, after seeing the rather sorry implementations of threaded views in forums, it certainly does look like the forum developers "didn't get it" when their users asked for a thread view. -- Best regards, Vladimir mailto:vladimir thecybershadow.net
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 11:45:23 +0200, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 On 11/29/2011 1:16 AM, Unknown W. Brackets wrote:
 Well, maybe, but I know that the developer who worked on the WAP and  
 I-mode
 interfaces for the web forum software I developed was *extremely*  
 concerned
 about the fact that he paid by like the kilobyte.

 He also used it (after developing it) quite a bit, and my understanding  
 was that
 it was fairly lightweight.

 It didn't have avatars (which I think are cruft; I don't use them on  
 forums),
 signatures (also cruft, in emails and newsgroups too.) I think it (but  
 I'm not
 sure, I didn't have a phone at the time) automatically stripped  
 second-level
 quotes too, which NNTP probably wouldn't do.

 Is NNTP even gzipped? I expect it isn't (and can't find any  
 contradiction in a
 quick peek at the RFCs), which would mean it's definitely not  
 impossible that
 HTML could win. But, I haven't really read those RFCs, so I could be  
 wrong.

I don't know if NNTP is compressed or not. But consider that NNTP was developed in the days of 110 baud data transmission (that's 11 characters per second).

NNTP isn't compressed. It also rarely uses the 8th bit. NNTP supports encryption via TLS (and thus possibly compression), but this is a rather recent development. Most protocols of that time were aimed at implementation simplicity (text-based, human-readable error messages etc.). -- Best regards, Vladimir mailto:vladimir thecybershadow.net
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 10:20:06 +0200, Walter Bright  
<newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 With the teeny screen on the iphone, I would suspect that NNTP would be  
 a big winner, as it is minimalist (and it is also pretty light on  
 bandwidth consumption).

The main problem with NNTP on small screen devices is that pre-wrapped plain text is generally not reflowable. -- Best regards, Vladimir mailto:vladimir thecybershadow.net
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Brad Anderson <eco gnuk.net> writes:
--f46d040716c7c75d4f04b2e23c9f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 1:17 AM, Walter Bright
<newshound2 digitalmars.com>wrote:

 On 11/28/2011 11:06 PM, Unknown W. Brackets wrote:

 3. Ignoring the comments about email replies (since they are easy
 fodder), and
 returning to the original: many forum softwares (including my own) due
 indeed
 provide a way to easily see which posts or topics you have or have not
 read.

 In fact, for a long while, I'm pretty sure SMF was the *only* one that
 remembered topics you hadn't read between visits. Maybe FUDforum too. Now
 a
 bunch do it, I think. Possibly all.

All? Reddit does not, Slashdot does not, Gamedev.net does not, Seattletimes.com does not, stackoverflow does not, digg does not, etc.

 I don't recall ever seeing one that allowed marking an individual post as
 "read".

--f46d040716c7c75d4f04b2e23c9f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 1:17 AM, Walter Bright <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre= f=3D"mailto:newshound2 digitalmars.com">newshound2 digitalmars.com</a>&gt;<= /span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot= e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"=

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> 3. Ignoring the comments about email replies (since they are easy fodder), = and<br> returning to the original: many forum softwares (including my own) due inde= ed<br> provide a way to easily see which posts or topics you have or have not read= .<br> <br> In fact, for a long while, I&#39;m pretty sure SMF was the *only* one that<= br> remembered topics you hadn&#39;t read between visits. Maybe FUDforum too. N= ow a<br> bunch do it, I think. Possibly all.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> All? Reddit does not, Slashdot does not, Gamedev.net does not, Seattletimes= .com does not, stackoverflow does not, digg does not, etc.<br> <br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Reddit does. You just need to be a pay= ing user (reddit gold).</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote= " style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> I don&#39;t recall ever seeing one that allowed marking an individual post = as &quot;read&quot;.<br> </blockquote></div><br> --f46d040716c7c75d4f04b2e23c9f--
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Sean Kelly <sean invisibleduck.org> writes:
The iPhone news reader is passable but not great. I can't do usenet from wor=
k though (firewall) so I've long since moved to using Brad's email forwarder=
. With IMAP that keeps everything in sync across machines too. Too bad most e=
mail clients don't do the tree threaded view.=20

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 29, 2011, at 12:20 AM, Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wro=
te:

 On 11/28/2011 11:08 PM, Unknown W. Brackets wrote:
 In contrast, I haven't a clue how to use NNTP on my iPhone. Go figure.

There is an NNTP newsreader app on the iphone, but the reviews on it say i=

=20
 With the teeny screen on the iphone, I would suspect that NNTP would be a b=

sumption).
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 18:37:37 +0200, Brad Anderson <eco gnuk.net> wrote:

 Reddit does. You just need to be a paying user (reddit gold).

The Reddit Gold feature still doesn't work on an individual message basis. It works like a web forum - it highlights new comments since the last time you've opened the comments page. -- Best regards, Vladimir mailto:vladimir thecybershadow.net
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 17:27:12 +0200, Unknown W. Brackets  
<usefirstnameinstead-newsgroup unknownbrackets.org> wrote:

 Well, that's all I mean by self moderation.  If users are making a  
 conscious effort to clarify (just like a "forward" button in email),  
 then problem solved.

 I find subthreads undesirable because humans think and experience the  
 conversation linearly.  They're not unlikely to cross reference, and in  
 newsgroups it's common to read "as X posted in his other reply" and  
 such.  So, then you have to go hunt that down.

I find cross-referencing to occur quite rarely.
 It also seems like providing links to other posts can't be done ideally.  
   It's rarely done, sometimes it uses a proprietary link, sometimes it  
 uses news://, and in most readers this seems to break threading (e.g.  
 pretty sure Thunderbird just opens the post in a new tab without  
 context.)  So, solving the multi-parent/cross-referencing issue oneself  
 isn't trivial.

This is an implementation problem (albeit a rather real and unfortunate one).
 Sure, and choice is wonderful.  But conflicting choice is the problem.  
 For example, on a web based forum I typically will reply, quoting  
 multiple people who talked about similar things, and addressing their  
 points or concerns together.

 I may make multiple posts in a row (depending on the forum, some  
 consider this bad manners) if there are many posts to reply to with  
 slightly varying sub-subjects.

 This usually works well, and allows people to skim in ways that make  
 sense.

 Now, if I have the choice to do that, how does it mesh with a newsgroup  
 style?  Now I have a single post with multiple parents.  Where does it  
 go?  This is the question that "hybrid mode" fails to answer, and when  
 you see it enabled, it's obvious who does and who doesn't use the  
 threading.

 So, in that case at least, choice makes everyone lose, basically.

I think you're over-exaggerating the problem (especially considering the trade-offs). Just put a "Reply" button next to each post, and remove the reply facilities that are not visually tied to specific posts. -- Best regards, Vladimir mailto:vladimir thecybershadow.net
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Jude Young <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
On Sun 27 Nov 2011 11:41:01 AM CST, alex wrote:
 Hi folks,

 I just wondered why there still is this uncomfortable and obviously outdated
newsgroup software in use.

 Perhaps it'd be more contemporary to have a 'real' browser-based forum to
which everyone can register and post D-related questions&answers.

 So, my recommendation would be to establish a forum based on phpBB or a
similar framework software (btw, it's free and open source, so don't worry
about possible
 costs!) at forum.d-programming-language.org


 To give D a further community 'push', I and a friend of mine really would like
to set up all required things if wanted.

 The reason I'm asking the newsgroup directly is to have the forum that can be
reachedunder the official D internet URL, so that it won't be a 'third-party'
driven one
 or something like that.


 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http
interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not working for me and only
gives back a
 connection timeout.

I would definitely be interested in a forum. But only if it has the following: a separate off topic area definite rules about what is and what is not allowed. permabans if it was associated with d-p-l, keep with the colors and general theme (just a preference) support threaded and flat views. and I'd prefer a way to turn off emoticons. just ideas: ideone has support for D(2.042 not too far behind), it'd be great if there was some kind of integration with that (post a code snippet, post the output, if that is possible then it shouldn't be too hard to hide everything outside of main()) http://ideone.com/api yeah i know, but it you have to admit that it would be awesome.
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Alexey Veselovsky <alexey.veselovsky gmail.com> writes:
nntp is more flexible then "real" web forum.
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent so <so so.so> writes:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:04:14 +0200, Jude Young <10equals2 gmail.com> wrote:

 I would definitely be interested in a forum.

 But only if it has the following:
 a separate off topic area
 definite rules about what is and what is not allowed.
 permabans
 if it was associated with d-p-l, keep with the colors and general theme
 (just a preference)
 support threaded and flat views.
 and I'd prefer a way to turn off emoticons.

Permabans, turn off emotions... Even with the recent trolls, this newsgroup rocks. Again, we should keep the newsgroups, if you want to ban, filter... do it on the web interface. Thanks.
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 19:41:01 +0200, alex <a_bothe gmx.net> wrote:

 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http  
 interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not working for me and  
 only gives back a
 connection timeout.

I am working on a new web interface. In its default view, it looks a bit like a forum. It's not yet finished, but you can preview it here: http://dfeed.kimsufi.thecybershadow.net/discussion/ I intend to finish it within the coming week. You may want to save your comments until then. -- Best regards, Vladimir mailto:vladimir thecybershadow.net
Nov 27 2011
next sibling parent Adam D. Ruppe <destructionator gmail.com> writes:
Vladimir Panteleev Wrote:
 I am working on a new web interface. In its default view, it looks a bit  
 like a forum.

That's awesome! Curious: using D for it?
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/27/2011 10:19 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 I am working on a new web interface. In its default view, it looks a bit like a
 forum.

 It's not yet finished, but you can preview it here:
 http://dfeed.kimsufi.thecybershadow.net/discussion/

 I intend to finish it within the coming week. You may want to save your
comments
 until then.

I think it is a vast improvement over the previous one. I like how it uses the gravatar pictures.
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Piotr Szturmaj <bncrbme jadamspam.pl> writes:
Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
 On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 19:41:01 +0200, alex <a_bothe gmx.net> wrote:

 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http
 interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not working for me
 and only gives back a
 connection timeout.

I am working on a new web interface. In its default view, it looks a bit like a forum. It's not yet finished, but you can preview it here: http://dfeed.kimsufi.thecybershadow.net/discussion/ I intend to finish it within the coming week. You may want to save your comments until then.

This is the best web ng interface I have seen so far. Keep up good work! :)
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling parent Dejan Lekic <dejan.lekic gmail.com> writes:
We talked about it on irc://irc.freenode.org/d and we all agreed that it is 
brilliant! :) Well done! :)
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Vladimir Panteleev" <vladimir thecybershadow.net> writes:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:24:04 +0200, Adam D. Ruppe  
<destructionator gmail.com> wrote:

 Vladimir Panteleev Wrote:
 I am working on a new web interface. In its default view, it looks a bit
 like a forum.

That's awesome! Curious: using D for it?

Of course :) https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed -- Best regards, Vladimir mailto:vladimir thecybershadow.net
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent so <so so.so> writes:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:19:48 +0200, Vladimir Panteleev  
<vladimir thecybershadow.net> wrote:

 On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 19:41:01 +0200, alex <a_bothe gmx.net> wrote:

 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http  
 interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not working for me and  
 only gives back a
 connection timeout.

I am working on a new web interface. In its default view, it looks a bit like a forum. It's not yet finished, but you can preview it here: http://dfeed.kimsufi.thecybershadow.net/discussion/ I intend to finish it within the coming week. You may want to save your comments until then.

Great work Vladimir! Just a suggestion. For topics, wouldn't tree view be the best choice for viewing threads? When you open a thread, you would see two frames, like newsgroup readers (pan, opera..) _________ | | | Tree | |_________| _________ | | | Content | |_________|
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent so <so so.so> writes:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:29:50 +0200, so <so so.so> wrote:

 On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:19:48 +0200, Vladimir Panteleev  
 <vladimir thecybershadow.net> wrote:

 On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 19:41:01 +0200, alex <a_bothe gmx.net> wrote:

 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http  
 interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not working for me  
 and only gives back a
 connection timeout.

I am working on a new web interface. In its default view, it looks a bit like a forum. It's not yet finished, but you can preview it here: http://dfeed.kimsufi.thecybershadow.net/discussion/ I intend to finish it within the coming week. You may want to save your comments until then.

Great work Vladimir! Just a suggestion. For topics, wouldn't tree view be the best choice for viewing threads? When you open a thread, you would see two frames, like newsgroup readers (pan, opera..) _________ | | | Tree | |_________| _________ | | | Content | |_________|

Oh, you already have it! "Message goes here"
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 17:41:01 +0000 (UTC)
alex <a_bothe gmx.net> wrote:

 Hi folks,
=20
 I just wondered why there still is this uncomfortable and obviously
 outdated newsgroup software in use.

-1 What is outdated in using mailer, getting nice threaded discussuion, easy searching of archives, automatic archives... Forums require launching browsers, login, almost impossible to find something etc.
 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http
 interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not working for me
 and only gives back a connection timeout.

Use more capable mailer/newsreader... /me uses claws-mail --=20 One who restrains his senses, keeping them under full control,=20 and fixes his consciousness upon Me, is known as a man of=20 steady intelligence. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Norbert Nemec <Norbert Nemec-online.de> writes:
Actually, I find a newsgroup far superior to a mailing list for this 
purpose. Reading and Archiving integrated in the same system and 
accessible with the same client. Far less total traffic, since only 
those contributions need to be transmitted that are actually read.

It is a pity that newsgroups are used so rarely!




On 27.11.2011 18:41, alex wrote:
 Hi folks,

 I just wondered why there still is this uncomfortable and obviously outdated
newsgroup software in use.

 Perhaps it'd be more contemporary to have a 'real' browser-based forum to
which everyone can register and post D-related questions&answers.

 So, my recommendation would be to establish a forum based on phpBB or a
similar framework software (btw, it's free and open source, so don't worry
about possible
 costs!) at forum.d-programming-language.org


 To give D a further community 'push', I and a friend of mine really would like
to set up all required things if wanted.

 The reason I'm asking the newsgroup directly is to have the forum that can be
reachedunder the official D internet URL, so that it won't be a 'third-party'
driven one
 or something like that.


 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http
interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not working for me and only
gives back a
 connection timeout.

Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 18:25:20 +0000 (UTC)
alex <a_bothe gmx.net> wrote:

 That's it. To be more beginner-friendly. Not to be that unnecessarily
 complicated and opaque.

What is not beginner-friendly in this group? My mailer allows reading news, I selected digitalmars server, was offered list of groups, subscribed to the desire ones and that's it. Forum will just divide not-too-big community and with dozen of forums it's so difficult to know what to follow etc. Here I can quickly skip over non-interesting threads, quickly mark the whole tread as read, mark thread as (un)ignore, (un)watch etc. However, if you make newsgroup <--> forum gateway, then I don't care for those wanting to read forums, but I'd say that the problem is not in 'uncomfortable and obviously outdated newsgroup software', but 'uncomfortable and obviously incapable newsgroup reader software'. ;) Sincerely, Gour --=20 The senses are so strong and impetuous, O Arjuna,=20 that they forcibly carry away the mind even of a man=20 of discrimination who is endeavoring to control them. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Russel Winder <russel russel.org.uk> writes:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 17:41 +0000, alex wrote:
 Hi folks,
=20
 I just wondered why there still is this uncomfortable and obviously outda=

What is outdated about with a mail list based system?
 Perhaps it'd be more contemporary to have a 'real' browser-based forum to=

Why is a browser-based system better -- as opposed to just being trendy?
 So, my recommendation would be to establish a forum based on phpBB or a s=

bout possible
 costs!) at forum.d-programming-language.org
=20
=20
 To give D a further community 'push', I and a friend of mine really would=

=20
 The reason I'm asking the newsgroup directly is to have the forum that ca=

-party' driven one
 or something like that.
=20
=20
 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http int=

ives back a
 connection timeout.

There will be warfare if this thread continues for mor that about 0.6 ms. It seems every community has to have this mail vs forum debate every three years or so, and it is completely futile. There are people who like and can use forums and there are people who abhor them because they are anathema. The onlt sane system is to have a synthesis of the two: forum interface for those who like forums and a mail list for those who only work with email based systems. Any other choice is a discrimination against personal choice of workflow. I am in the mail list camp. I will not use forums as it means stuff does not appear in my email system. Communities that choose non-email based forums loose a lot of high quality input. Systems that are purely email based fail to attract a lot of high quality input. Communities that use an integrated system win since UI is personal choice. So if you want to get any traction at all in this debate only propose an integrated forum/email system any other choice leads to #fail. --=20 Russel. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.winder ekiga.n= et 41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: russel russel.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder
Nov 27 2011
next sibling parent Jude <10equals2 gmail.com> writes:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Your a little late with your predictions..


On 11/27/2011 03:05 PM, Russel Winder wrote:
 On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 17:41 +0000, alex wrote:
 Hi folks,
 
 I just wondered why there still is this uncomfortable and 
 obviously outdated newsgroup software in use.

What is outdated about with a mail list based system?
 Perhaps it'd be more contemporary to have a 'real' browser-based 
 forum to which everyone can register and post D-related 
 questions&answers.

Why is a browser-based system better -- as opposed to just being trendy?
 So, my recommendation would be to establish a forum based on 
 phpBB or a similar framework software (btw, it's free and open 
 source, so don't worry about possible costs!) at 
 forum.d-programming-language.org
 
 
 To give D a further community 'push', I and a friend of mine 
 really would like to set up all required things if wanted.
 
 The reason I'm asking the newsgroup directly is to have the
 forum that can be reachedunder the official D internet URL, so
 that it won't be a 'third-party' driven one or something like
 that.
 
 
 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the 
 http interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not
 working for me and only gives back a connection timeout.

There will be warfare if this thread continues for mor that about 0.6 ms. It seems every community has to have this mail vs forum debate every three years or so, and it is completely futile. There are people who like and can use forums and there are people who abhor them because they are anathema. The onlt sane system is to have a synthesis of the two: forum interface for those who like forums and a mail list for those who only work with email based systems. Any other choice is a discrimination against personal choice of workflow. I am in the mail list camp. I will not use forums as it means stuff does not appear in my email system. Communities that choose non-email based forums loose a lot of high quality input. Systems that are purely email based fail to attract a lot of high quality input. Communities that use an integrated system win since UI is personal choice. So if you want to get any traction at all in this debate only propose an integrated forum/email system any other choice leads to #fail.

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Nov 27 2011
prev sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> writes:
On 11/27/2011 1:05 PM, Russel Winder wrote:
 So if you want to get any traction at all in this debate only propose an
 integrated forum/email system any other choice leads to #fail.

Yup. A decent web interface to NNTP is just the ticket.
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Russel Winder <russel russel.org.uk> writes:
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On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 15:12 -0600, Jude wrote:
 Your a little late with your predictions..

So I have now discovered. My excuse is that trying to do anything related to the Internet on the end of a 2G TCP/IP connection leads to discontinuities of flow. I.e. I had written and send my answer before I knew about the (somewhat predictable) response. The work on a NG bride to browser usage looks interesting for the forum-oriented folk though. But being an email oriented person... --=20 Russel. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.winder ekiga.n= et 41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: russel russel.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder
Nov 27 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
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On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 22:12:46 -0800
Walter Bright <newshound2 digitalmars.com> wrote:

 Generally, they suck. They just don't get what a threaded view is.
 Newsreaders solved this problem decades ago. A thread is not a topic.
 It's a view showing who replied to which message. Click to expand at
 each branching point, click to contract, click to see a particular
 message. At each point, you can see which messages you've read, and
 which you haven't.
=20
 I've never, ever seen forum software that can do that. If there is
 one, point me to an example.
=20
 Every newsreader does this.

+1
 Again, the forum software writers just don't get it. It has to be per
 message. Why? So in a larger thread, you can instantly see what is
 read and what isn't. This is NOT equivalent to a chronological sort.
 I do not read threads linearly.

+1
 Sorry, but that's not it. I want to see if someone replied to a
 *particular* message.

+1
 I've used many forum softwares. They all just DON'T GET IT.

+1 Hey, that's +4 :-) Sincerely, Gour --=20 The senses are so strong and impetuous, O Arjuna,=20 that they forcibly carry away the mind even of a man=20 of discrimination who is endeavoring to control them. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
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On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:37:38 +0100
Somedude <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> wrote:

 The main drawback of newsgroups is the absence of a search feature.
 Apart from that, I like it.

It's the drawback of your *newsreader* and not of the newsgroups itself. I use Claws-mail and have powerful search features included. Sincerely, Gour --=20 One who is able to withdraw his senses from sense objects,=20 as the tortoise draws its limbs within the shell,=20 is firmly fixed in perfect consciousness. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Johannes Totz <johannes jo-t.de> writes:
On 27/11/2011 17:41, alex wrote:
 Hi folks,

 I just wondered why there still is this uncomfortable and obviously
 outdated newsgroup software in use.

 Perhaps it'd be more contemporary to have a 'real' browser-based
 forum to which everyone can register and post D-related
 questions&answers.

 So, my recommendation would be to establish a forum based on phpBB or
 a similar framework software (btw, it's free and open source, so
 don't worry about possible costs!) at
 forum.d-programming-language.org


 To give D a further community 'push', I and a friend of mine really
 would like to set up all required things if wanted.

 The reason I'm asking the newsgroup directly is to have the forum
 that can be reachedunder the official D internet URL, so that it
 won't be a 'third-party' driven one or something like that.


 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http
 interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not working for me
 and only gives back a connection timeout.

Ok, so there was already lots of discussion. Just let me add my 2 cents... PHP forum? Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!1 If D had a web-based forum only I would not bother reading it or ever coming back to it. I would not have bothered trying to learn any D. I like how these "ancient" newsgroups sort and organise individual messages. I get a nice threaded view, I can see what I've read already, who replied to what. Very efficient. Forum? barf... I hate having to sign up here and register there. I opportunistically want to reply to messages. All this clutter around it, avatars, annoying formatting. Please, pretty please, no. A nice web-based interface to the newsgroup? Yeah could do (I wouldn't use it though).
Nov 28 2011
next sibling parent Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com> writes:
On 11/29/2011 8:36 AM, Johannes Totz wrote:

 PHP forum? Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!1
 If D had a web-based forum only I would not bother reading it or ever
 coming back to it. I would not have bothered trying to learn any D. I
 like how these "ancient" newsgroups sort and organise individual
 messages. I get a nice threaded view, I can see what I've read already,
 who replied to what. Very efficient.

Conversely, there are people who see a newsgroup and run away screaming. There have been several projects I've looked into over the years and where I didn't get involved with the community precisely because they had a newsgroup and not a forum. Consider this. I've been using web-based mail for years, so had no mail/newsgroup client installed. Why would I want to install one just for one little project? With a forum, I don't have to install anything. I've been using them for years, am quite used to them, and think the newsgroup interface is antiquated. I hated it even back in 1995 when it was all we had. Forums are in my comfort zone. Obviously, I made an exception for D because I think it rocks. I went and downloaded Thunderbird. To date, the D newsgroups are all I use it for. But I wonder how many people didn't make an exception? Obviously, we can't please everyone. And I think common sense dictates that in a newsgroup, we will see more people who prefer newsgroups. But I really believe that if we had a proper forum, we'd have a great many more users in the community (for better or worse). Anyway, this horse has been beat to death more than once here.
 Forum? barf... I hate having to sign up here and register there. I
 opportunistically want to reply to messages. All this clutter around it,
 avatars, annoying formatting. Please, pretty please, no.

 A nice web-based interface to the newsgroup? Yeah could do (I wouldn't
 use it though).

Nov 28 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent "Marco Leise" <Marco.Leise gmx.de> writes:
Am 29.11.2011, 06:51 Uhr, schrieb Mike Parker <aldacron gmail.com>:

 Consider this. I've been using web-based mail for years, so had no  
 mail/newsgroup client installed. Why would I want to install one just  
 for one little project? With a forum, I don't have to install anything.  
 I've been using them for years, am quite used to them, and think the  
 newsgroup interface is antiquated. I hated it even back in 1995 when it  
 was all we had. Forums are in my comfort zone.

I always thought that here is a high percentage of Opera users. It may be the case that browsers with integrated news/mail reader make a higher percentage here than in the open. Likewise I never questioned the technology, although news.digitalmars.com is my only news groups as well. (Discounting mailing lists and RSS feeds from other sources.)
Nov 28 2011
prev sibling parent Bane <branimir.milosavljevic gmail.com> writes:
There might be one more benefit of using forum. Registered users could vote on
different topics. I find voting process here on newsgroup very inefficient.
Is it possible to make (or find existing implementation), using forum, some
kind of automated mail spam to all users, and see the results?

It would really show what community wants, how much people are active, what
they think ...
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
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On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 07:59:22 +0100
"Marco Leise" <Marco.Leise gmx.de> wrote:

 I always thought that here is a high percentage of Opera users. It
 may be the case that browsers with integrated news/mail reader make a
 higher percentage here than in the open. Likewise I never questioned
 the technology, although news.digitalmars.com is my only news groups
 as well. (Discounting mailing lists and RSS feeds from other sources.)

Let me say, again, that I follow this newsgroup within my mail reader. Moreover, 99% of mailing lists which I follow are subscribed to Gmane (http://gmane.org) which is mail <---> news gateway because it spares me from manually subscribing to majority of mailing lists. One just needs to reply to Gmane auth message and that's all. That's why I really do not get advantage of forums... Sincerely, Gour --=20 A person who has given up all desires for sense gratification,=20 who lives free from desires, who has given up all sense of=20 proprietorship and is devoid of false ego =E2=80=94 he alone can=20 attain real peace. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
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Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Kai Meyer <kai unixlords.com> writes:
On 11/27/2011 10:41 AM, alex wrote:
 Hi folks,

 I just wondered why there still is this uncomfortable and obviously outdated
newsgroup software in use.

 Perhaps it'd be more contemporary to have a 'real' browser-based forum to
which everyone can register and post D-related questions&answers.

 So, my recommendation would be to establish a forum based on phpBB or a
similar framework software (btw, it's free and open source, so don't worry
about possible
 costs!) at forum.d-programming-language.org


 To give D a further community 'push', I and a friend of mine really would like
to set up all required things if wanted.

 The reason I'm asking the newsgroup directly is to have the forum that can be
reachedunder the official D internet URL, so that it won't be a 'third-party'
driven one
 or something like that.


 Even if this idea should be a bit too 'large', please do fix the http
interface for the D main newsgroup thread - it's not working for me and only
gives back a
 connection timeout.

Imagine sitting in a movie theatre after the movie is finished. Everyone wants to talk about the same movie. What if you had to look through each comment made in the theatre in chronological order, instead of just turning to the person you came with and talking to them? To me, Forums are not meant for discussion. They are a means to broadcast an opinion or question, and ask for feedback. Walter appears to be in favor of having a discussion medium. I think that the D.learn newsgroup could be easily (and probably more productivly) converted to a web-based Forum. Even though it may cause a small division between communities, it would provide a more comfortable entry point for new developers who are more accustomed to Forums. The Forum could have a read-only view into the news group to expose the Forum Users to the language developer community and lessen the gap between the two groups. My 2 cents.
Nov 29 2011
parent Kagamin <spam here.lot> writes:
Kai Meyer Wrote:

 Imagine sitting in a movie theatre after the movie is finished. Everyone 
 wants to talk about the same movie. What if you had to look through each 
 comment made in the theatre in chronological order, instead of just 
 turning to the person you came with and talking to them?

This is exactly what you do in forums. In fact, forums are people-oriented, while threads are topic-oriented.
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
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On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 13:52:24 -0500
"Jonathan M Davis" <jmdavisProg gmx.com> wrote:

 and I don't know how to get that with a newsgroup client even if it
 works at both work and home (and wherever else you'd need to sync).

ssh and some rsync magic between two machines? I took advantage of this=20 http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GnusSync when using Emacs/Gnus. Sincerely, Gour --=20 =46rom anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion=20 bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered,=20 intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost=20 one falls down again into the material pool. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling next sibling parent Gour <gour atmarama.net> writes:
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On Wed, 30 Nov 2011 00:22:34 +0100
Somedude <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> wrote:

 Le 28/11/2011 14:55, Gour a =C3=A9crit :
 On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:37:38 +0100
 Somedude <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> wrote:
=20
 The main drawback of newsgroups is the absence of a search feature.
 Apart from that, I like it.

It's the drawback of your *newsreader* and not of the newsgroups itself. =20 I use Claws-mail and have powerful search features included. =20 =20 Sincerely, Gour =20 =20

from the beginning of the newsgroup, which is not feasible.=20

Todays' HD space is cheap, so I don't bother having the whole newsgroup in my cache.
 That's a reason why some questions are asked over and over again.

I'd say the real reason is that people do not use 'Search'.=20 Gmane newsgroups have nice advanced search and for this newsgroup one can visit: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/index.html enter something in Search-field and press Go button. Is it difficult? Sincerely, Gour --=20 In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution,=20 and a little advancement on this path can protect=20 one from the most dangerous type of fear. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
Nov 29 2011
prev sibling parent reply Somedude <lovelydear mailmetrash.com> writes:
Le 27/11/2011 18:41, alex a écrit :

Oh, another advantage of a real forum: you can ban users based on their
IP. Would be good for drunkards like SteveD alias Abraham alias Peter.
Dec 04 2011
parent simendsjo <simendsjo gmail.com> writes:
On 04.12.2011 12:02, Somedude wrote:
 Le 27/11/2011 18:41, alex a écrit :

 Oh, another advantage of a real forum: you can ban users based on their
 IP. Would be good for drunkards like SteveD alias Abraham alias Peter.

I'm not a huge fan of banning, but I was just thinking the same thing... It doesn't help blocking when he changes the nick and email all the time.
Dec 04 2011