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digitalmars.D - Today the Hobbyist, Tommorow, The World!

reply Kyle Furlong <kylefurlong gmail.com> writes:
I'm becoming more and more convinced that D needs a polished presence. 
How did Java succeed? Marketing. Plain and simple, the first revisions 
sucked, but got evangelized extremely effectively. How much better, 
since we have a quality compiler, to market it.

I think I understand the attitude of Walter and some others. That is, 
that the merits of the language are self evident to the people who it is 
written for, e.g. those who seek will find. So from this point of view, 
marketing is unnecessary, word of mouth about the merits of the language 
will do this work for us.

While I appreciate this feeling, this mode of operation will only gain 
us a certain base of users, i.e. hobbyists and one man operations who 
can afford to invest in a new language on just its merits. Everyone else 
(read, the majority of the IT world) cannot form decisions only on the 
merits of a compiler. Organizations need reassurances of a polished 
presence. This means documentation, support, packaging, and marketing.

To this end, I propose the formation of an organization/committee, 
headed by Walter, to guide the process of creating this polished presence.

Some things which this committee should consider are:

1. Unified std library which is 100% covered and stable.

Aside: I am strongly biased to creating this library out of Ares + 
Mango. No offense Walter, but Sean and Kris' code is higher quality at 
this point.

2. Formation of a GUI /team/ to pick and/or develop further a cross 
platform solution.

Aside: It must be a team. DWT is stagnant because Shawn doesnt have 
time, and no one else understands the code well enough to continue.

3. Choice of a new mascot/revamp of D-man. Also consider a new name.

Aside: I love the name D. But, the benefits of a name bigger than 2 
letters are self evident, it should be considered. Also, D-man has 
served us well. My initial reaction however, when I was first introduced 
to him, was, "Wow, what a trashy mascot, how uncreative." Now that I'm 
used to him, hes alright, but I seriously think we need to reconsider.

4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of 
www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from 
the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals 
of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of 
www.php.net.

Aside: I understand that Walter would like as much traffic to drive his 
click ads, but we could work something out, if it is a big issue. Also, 
this site could also be owned by DigitalMars as well.

I'm interested to hear dissenting opinions as well as Walter's plans for 
DigitalMars' involvement in the pursuit of D's success in the wider 
world of computing.

-- 
Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB

"D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright
May 02 2006
next sibling parent reply John Demme <me teqdruid.com> writes:
Kyle Furlong wrote:

 I'm becoming more and more convinced that D needs a polished presence.
 How did Java succeed? Marketing. Plain and simple, the first revisions
 sucked, but got evangelized extremely effectively. How much better,
 since we have a quality compiler, to market it.
 
 I think I understand the attitude of Walter and some others. That is,
 that the merits of the language are self evident to the people who it is
 written for, e.g. those who seek will find. So from this point of view,
 marketing is unnecessary, word of mouth about the merits of the language
 will do this work for us.
 
 While I appreciate this feeling, this mode of operation will only gain
 us a certain base of users, i.e. hobbyists and one man operations who
 can afford to invest in a new language on just its merits. Everyone else
 (read, the majority of the IT world) cannot form decisions only on the
 merits of a compiler. Organizations need reassurances of a polished
 presence. This means documentation, support, packaging, and marketing.
 
 To this end, I propose the formation of an organization/committee,
 headed by Walter, to guide the process of creating this polished presence.
 
 Some things which this committee should consider are:
 
 1. Unified std library which is 100% covered and stable.
 
 Aside: I am strongly biased to creating this library out of Ares +
 Mango. No offense Walter, but Sean and Kris' code is higher quality at
 this point.
 
 2. Formation of a GUI /team/ to pick and/or develop further a cross
 platform solution.
 
 Aside: It must be a team. DWT is stagnant because Shawn doesnt have
 time, and no one else understands the code well enough to continue.
 
 3. Choice of a new mascot/revamp of D-man. Also consider a new name.
 
 Aside: I love the name D. But, the benefits of a name bigger than 2
 letters are self evident, it should be considered. Also, D-man has
 served us well. My initial reaction however, when I was first introduced
 to him, was, "Wow, what a trashy mascot, how uncreative." Now that I'm
 used to him, hes alright, but I seriously think we need to reconsider.
 
 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of
 www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from
 the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals
 of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of
 www.php.net.
 
 Aside: I understand that Walter would like as much traffic to drive his
 click ads, but we could work something out, if it is a big issue. Also,
 this site could also be owned by DigitalMars as well.
 
 I'm interested to hear dissenting opinions as well as Walter's plans for
 DigitalMars' involvement in the pursuit of D's success in the wider
 world of computing.
 

I mostly agree, and where I do, I agree very emphatically. The only point I disagree with is 3... A better D-man would be nice (sorry Walter) but changing the name is a bad idea. The name "D" has already made significant inroads (see TPCI) and we don't want to loose that. As for point 4, the new look of the digitalmars.com/d site is a vast improvement on the last one. It's a great site for DMD, but not for D. What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples, tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff. ~John Demme
May 02 2006
next sibling parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
 What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples,
 tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.

I will donate an existing layout or make a new one.
May 02 2006
parent reply David Gileadi <foo bar.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples,
 tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.

I will donate an existing layout or make a new one.

Here's a mockup I've started, having been thinking much along the same lines as Kyle. It's loosely based on www.mono-project.com Hopefully it can help the discussion. http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg (forgive the imageshack hosting) Obviously the front page needs a lot more content. I was thinking that the "What is D?" section should have links to the following: - Comparison - Examples - FAQ - Docs - License I also think there should be a small section before or after giving a quick explanation of what D is, why I should use it, maybe what platforms it works on, etc. The "What's New" section might contain the latest releases from the changelog as well as any community announcements (maybe culled from d.announce). Of course this would require someone to maintain the list :) Finally I beg Walter's forgiveness for modifying the DigitalMars logo. I just think it looks better this way :) -Dave
May 03 2006
next sibling parent reply "charles" <admin tdjonline.com> writes:
Very cool.  This is the type of design I like, extremely easy to use -- big
easy icons -- absouletly no thought required to navigate :).

Charlie

"David Gileadi" <foo bar.com> wrote in message
news:e3ajnh$31ir$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 nick wrote:
  >> What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples,
  >> tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.
  >
  > I will donate an existing layout or make a new one.

 Here's a mockup I've started, having been thinking much along the same
 lines as Kyle.  It's loosely based on www.mono-project.com  Hopefully it
 can help the discussion.

 http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg (forgive the
 imageshack hosting)

 Obviously the front page needs a lot more content.  I was thinking that
 the "What is D?" section should have links to the following:

    - Comparison
    - Examples
    - FAQ
    - Docs
    - License

 I also think there should be a small section before or after giving a
 quick explanation of what D is, why I should use it, maybe what
 platforms it works on, etc.

 The "What's New" section might contain the latest releases from the
 changelog as well as any community announcements (maybe culled from
 d.announce).  Of course this would require someone to maintain the list :)

 Finally I beg Walter's forgiveness for modifying the DigitalMars logo.
 I just think it looks better this way :)

 -Dave

May 03 2006
parent reply Dave <Dave_member pathlink.com> writes:
charles wrote:
 Very cool.  This is the type of design I like, extremely easy to use -- big
 easy icons -- absouletly no thought required to navigate :).
 
 Charlie

 "David Gileadi" <foo bar.com> wrote in message
 news:e3ajnh$31ir$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 nick wrote:
  >> What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples,
  >> tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.
  >
  > I will donate an existing layout or make a new one.

 Here's a mockup I've started, having been thinking much along the same
 lines as Kyle.  It's loosely based on www.mono-project.com  Hopefully it
 can help the discussion.

 http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg (forgive the
 imageshack hosting)

 Obviously the front page needs a lot more content.  I was thinking that
 the "What is D?" section should have links to the following:

    - Comparison
    - Examples
    - FAQ
    - Docs
    - License

 I also think there should be a small section before or after giving a
 quick explanation of what D is, why I should use it, maybe what
 platforms it works on, etc.

 The "What's New" section might contain the latest releases from the
 changelog as well as any community announcements (maybe culled from
 d.announce).  Of course this would require someone to maintain the list :)

 Finally I beg Walter's forgiveness for modifying the DigitalMars logo.
 I just think it looks better this way :)

 -Dave


Agreed - that is great! I like all the ideas posted here recently, but this one is so clutter-free it just invites one to explore further. An idea for whatever the style outcome - post a link to something like this somewhere, or otherwise a "Sample Code" page. The idea would be to provide people in a hurry (a) nice short example(s) showing some of the primary D features. For example, I would think this would be something C++ coders could quickly scan and be intrigued by: #!/usr/bin/dmd -run /* sh style script syntax is supported! */ /* Hello World in D To compile: dmd hello.d or to optimize: dmd -O -inline -release hello.d */ import std.stdio; void main(char[][] args) { writefln("Hello World, Reloaded"); // auto type inference and built-in foreach foreach(argc, argv; args) { // OOP! CmdLin cl = new CmdLin(argc, argv); // improved printf!! writefln(cl.argnum, cl.suffix, " arg: %s", cl.argv); // Garbage Collection or explicit memory management!!! delete cl; } // Nested structs, classes and functions! struct specs { // all vars. automatically initialized int count, allocated; } specs argspecs(char[][] args) { specs* s = new specs; // no need for '->' s.count = args.length; s.allocated = typeof(args).sizeof; // built-in properties for native types foreach(argv; args) s.allocated += argv.length * typeof(argv[0]).sizeof; return *s; } // built-in string and common string operations writefln("argc = %d, " ~ "allocated = %d",argspecs(args).count,argspecs(args).allocated); } class CmdLin { private int _argc; private char[] _argv; public: this(int argc, char[] argv) { _argc = argc; _argv = argv; } int argnum() { return _argc + 1; } char[] argv() { return _argv; } char[] suffix() { char[] suffix = "th"; switch(_argc) { case 0: suffix = "st"; break; case 1: suffix = "nd"; break; case 2: suffix = "rd"; break; default: } return suffix; } }
May 03 2006
next sibling parent Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
Dave wrote:
 
 An idea for whatever the style outcome - post a link to something like 
 this somewhere, or otherwise a "Sample Code" page. The idea would be to 
 provide people in a hurry (a) nice short example(s) showing some of the 
 primary D features. For example, I would think this would be something 
 C++ coders could quickly scan and be intrigued by:

(Excellent demo code deleted.) Yes, that's an excellent idea!! And your code looked very good. This is probably the best way to give a seasoned C++ guy a heavy-duty teaser, and make him drool. All within 60 seconds. Definitely more efficient than reams of explanations and superlatives. And more believable than any "who gets most ticks in a contrived comparison chart". Absolutely a link to this from David Giledis draft!
May 04 2006
prev sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Dave wrote:
 An idea for whatever the style outcome - post a link to something like 
 this somewhere, or otherwise a "Sample Code" page. The idea would be to 
 provide people in a hurry (a) nice short example(s) showing some of the 
 primary D features. For example, I would think this would be something 
 C++ coders could quickly scan and be intrigued by:

I think this is very good. Can I use it, or perhaps you can put it on wikipedia?
 #!/usr/bin/dmd -run
 /* sh style script syntax is supported! */
 
 /* Hello World in D
    To compile:
    dmd hello.d
     or to optimize:
    dmd -O -inline -release hello.d
 */
 
 import std.stdio;
 
 void main(char[][] args)
 {
     writefln("Hello World, Reloaded");
 
     // auto type inference and built-in foreach
     foreach(argc, argv; args)
     {
         // OOP!
         CmdLin cl = new CmdLin(argc, argv);
         // improved printf!!
         writefln(cl.argnum, cl.suffix, " arg: %s", cl.argv);
         // Garbage Collection or explicit memory management!!!
         delete cl;
     }
 
     // Nested structs, classes and functions!
     struct specs
     {
         // all vars. automatically initialized
         int count, allocated;
     }
 
     specs argspecs(char[][] args)
     {
         specs* s = new specs;
         // no need for '->'
         s.count = args.length;
         s.allocated = typeof(args).sizeof; // built-in properties for 
 native types
         foreach(argv; args)
             s.allocated += argv.length * typeof(argv[0]).sizeof;
         return *s;
     }
 
     // built-in string and common string operations
     writefln("argc = %d, " ~ "allocated = 
 %d",argspecs(args).count,argspecs(args).allocated);
 }
 
 class CmdLin
 {
     private int _argc;
     private char[] _argv;
 
 public:
     this(int argc, char[] argv)
     {
         _argc = argc;
         _argv = argv;
     }
 
     int argnum()
     {
         return _argc + 1;
     }
 
     char[] argv()
     {
         return _argv;
     }
 
     char[] suffix()
     {
         char[] suffix = "th";
         switch(_argc)
         {
         case 0:
             suffix = "st";
             break;
         case 1:
             suffix = "nd";
             break;
         case 2:
             suffix = "rd";
             break;
         default:
         }
         return suffix;
     }
 }

May 04 2006
parent reply Dave <Dave_member pathlink.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:
 Dave wrote:
 An idea for whatever the style outcome - post a link to something like 
 this somewhere, or otherwise a "Sample Code" page. The idea would be 
 to provide people in a hurry (a) nice short example(s) showing some of 
 the primary D features. For example, I would think this would be 
 something C++ coders could quickly scan and be intrigued by:

I think this is very good. Can I use it, or perhaps you can put it on wikipedia?

Sure! I'll put it on Wikipedia too. - Dave
 #!/usr/bin/dmd -run
 /* sh style script syntax is supported! */

 /* Hello World in D
    To compile:
    dmd hello.d
     or to optimize:
    dmd -O -inline -release hello.d
 */

 import std.stdio;

 void main(char[][] args)
 {
     writefln("Hello World, Reloaded");

     // auto type inference and built-in foreach
     foreach(argc, argv; args)
     {
         // OOP!
         CmdLin cl = new CmdLin(argc, argv);
         // improved printf!!
         writefln(cl.argnum, cl.suffix, " arg: %s", cl.argv);
         // Garbage Collection or explicit memory management!!!
         delete cl;
     }

     // Nested structs, classes and functions!
     struct specs
     {
         // all vars. automatically initialized
         int count, allocated;
     }

     specs argspecs(char[][] args)
     {
         specs* s = new specs;
         // no need for '->'
         s.count = args.length;
         s.allocated = typeof(args).sizeof; // built-in properties for 
 native types
         foreach(argv; args)
             s.allocated += argv.length * typeof(argv[0]).sizeof;
         return *s;
     }

     // built-in string and common string operations
     writefln("argc = %d, " ~ "allocated = 
 %d",argspecs(args).count,argspecs(args).allocated);
 }

 class CmdLin
 {
     private int _argc;
     private char[] _argv;

 public:
     this(int argc, char[] argv)
     {
         _argc = argc;
         _argv = argv;
     }

     int argnum()
     {
         return _argc + 1;
     }

     char[] argv()
     {
         return _argv;
     }

     char[] suffix()
     {
         char[] suffix = "th";
         switch(_argc)
         {
         case 0:
             suffix = "st";
             break;
         case 1:
             suffix = "nd";
             break;
         case 2:
             suffix = "rd";
             break;
         default:
         }
         return suffix;
     }
 }


May 04 2006
parent reply "Derek Parnell" <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Fri, 05 May 2006 04:36:30 +1000, Dave <Dave_member pathlink.com> wrote:


 Sure! I'll put it on Wikipedia too.

Hope you don't mind but here is a more annotated version that shows off a couple of other goodies. #!/usr/bin/dmd -run /* sh style script syntax is supported! */ /* Hello World in D To compile: dmd hello.d or to optimize: dmd -O -inline -release hello.d To get generated documentation: dmd hello.d -D */ import std.stdio; // References to commonly used I/O routines. void main(char[][] args) // 'void' here means return 0 by default. { // Write-Formatted-Line writefln("Hello World, " // automatic concatenation of string literals "Reloaded"); // auto type inference and built-in foreach foreach(argc, argv; args) { // OOP! CmdLin cl = new CmdLin(argc, argv); // improved 'printf' !! // user-defined class properties. writefln(cl.argnum, cl.suffix, " arg: %s", cl.argv); // Garbage Collection or explicit memory management!!! delete cl; } // Nested structs, classes and functions! struct specs { // all vars. automatically initialized int count, allocated; } // 'char[][]' reads right to left - an array of an array of chars. specs argspecs(char[][] args) // Optional (built-in) function contracts. in{ assert (args.length > 0); // assert built in } out(result){ assert(result.count == CmdLin.total); assert(result.allocated > 0); } body{ specs* s = new specs; // no need for '->' s.count = args.length; // The 'length' property is number of elements. s.allocated = typeof(args).sizeof; // built-in properties for native types foreach(argv; args) s.allocated += argv.length * typeof(argv[0]).sizeof; return *s; } // built-in string and common string operations, eg. '~' is concatenate. char[] argcmsg = "argc = %d"; char[] allocmsg = "allocated = %d"; writefln(argcmsg ~ ", " ~ allocmsg, argspecs(args).count,argspecs(args).allocated); } /** Stores a single command line argument. */ class CmdLin { private { int _argc; char[] _argv; static uint _totalc; } public: /************ Object constructor. params: argc = ordinal count of this argument. argv = text of the parameter */ this(int argc, char[] argv) { _argc = argc; _argv = argv; _totalc++; } ~this() // Object destructor { // Doesn't actually do anything for this example. } int argnum() /// A property that returns arg number { return _argc + 1; } char[] argv() /// A property that returns arg text { return _argv; } wchar[] suffix() /// A property that returns ordinal suffix { wchar[] suffix; // Built in Unicode strings (utf8,utf16, utf32) switch(_argc) { case 0: suffix = "st"; break; case 1: suffix = "nd"; break; case 2: suffix = "rd"; break; default: // 'default' is mandatory with "-w" compile switch. suffix = "th"; } return suffix; } /*************** * A property of the whole class, not just an instance. * returns: The total number of commandline args added. *************/ static typeof(_totalc) total() { return _totalc; } } -- Derek Parnell Melbourne, Australia
May 04 2006
parent reply Dave <Dave_member pathlink.com> writes:
Derek Parnell wrote:
 On Fri, 05 May 2006 04:36:30 +1000, Dave <Dave_member pathlink.com> wrote:
 
 
 Sure! I'll put it on Wikipedia too.


No prob. - Want to 'wikify' that instead?
 Hope you don't mind but here is a more annotated version that shows off 
 a couple of other goodies.
 
 #!/usr/bin/dmd -run
 /* sh style script syntax is supported! */
  /* Hello World in D
    To compile:
    dmd hello.d
     or to optimize:
    dmd -O -inline -release hello.d
 
    To get generated documentation:
     dmd hello.d -D
 */
  import std.stdio;  // References to commonly used I/O routines.
  void main(char[][] args)   // 'void' here means return 0 by default.
 {
     // Write-Formatted-Line
     writefln("Hello World, "   // automatic concatenation of string 
 literals
              "Reloaded");
      // auto type inference and built-in foreach
     foreach(argc, argv; args)
     {
         // OOP!
         CmdLin cl = new CmdLin(argc, argv);
 
         // improved 'printf' !!
         // user-defined class properties.
         writefln(cl.argnum, cl.suffix, " arg: %s", cl.argv);
         // Garbage Collection or explicit memory management!!!
         delete cl;
     }
      // Nested structs, classes and functions!
     struct specs
     {
         // all vars. automatically initialized
         int count, allocated;
     }
 
     // 'char[][]' reads right to left - an array of an array of chars.
 
     specs argspecs(char[][] args)
     // Optional (built-in) function contracts.
     in{
         assert (args.length > 0); // assert built in
     }
     out(result){
         assert(result.count == CmdLin.total);
         assert(result.allocated > 0);
     }
     body{
         specs* s = new specs;
         // no need for '->'
         s.count = args.length;  // The 'length' property is number of 
 elements.
         s.allocated = typeof(args).sizeof; // built-in properties for 
 native types
         foreach(argv; args)
             s.allocated += argv.length * typeof(argv[0]).sizeof;
         return *s;
     }
 
     // built-in string and common string operations, eg. '~' is 
 concatenate.
     char[] argcmsg  = "argc = %d";
     char[] allocmsg = "allocated = %d";
     writefln(argcmsg ~ ", " ~ allocmsg,
          argspecs(args).count,argspecs(args).allocated);
 }
 /**
    Stores a single command line argument.
 */
  class CmdLin
 {
     private {
      int _argc;
      char[] _argv;
      static uint _totalc;
     }
 
  public:
     /************
       Object constructor.
       params:
         argc = ordinal count of this argument.
         argv = text of the parameter
      */
     this(int argc, char[] argv)
     {
         _argc = argc;
         _argv = argv;
         _totalc++;
     }
 
     ~this() // Object destructor
     {
         // Doesn't actually do anything for this example.
     }
 
      int argnum() /// A property that returns arg number
     {
         return _argc + 1;
     }
      char[] argv() /// A property that returns arg text
     {
         return _argv;
     }
      wchar[] suffix() /// A property that returns ordinal suffix
     {
         wchar[] suffix;  // Built in Unicode strings (utf8,utf16, utf32)
         switch(_argc)
         {
         case 0:
             suffix = "st";
             break;
         case 1:
             suffix = "nd";
             break;
         case 2:
             suffix = "rd";
             break;
         default:  // 'default' is mandatory with "-w" compile switch.
             suffix = "th";
         }
         return suffix;
     }
 
     /***************
       * A property of the whole class, not just an instance.
       * returns: The total number of commandline args added.
       *************/
      static typeof(_totalc) total()
     {
         return _totalc;
     }
 }
 
 --Derek Parnell
 Melbourne, Australia

May 04 2006
parent Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Thu, 04 May 2006 15:09:20 -0500, Dave wrote:

 Derek Parnell wrote:
 On Fri, 05 May 2006 04:36:30 +1000, Dave <Dave_member pathlink.com> wrote:
 
 Sure! I'll put it on Wikipedia too.


No prob. - Want to 'wikify' that instead?

Ok, I've uploaded the 'wikified' version to wikipedia and wikibooks. -- Derek (skype: derek.j.parnell) Melbourne, Australia "Down with mediocracy!" 5/05/2006 1:37:54 PM
May 04 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent jcc7 <jcc7_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <e3ajnh$31ir$1 digitaldaemon.com>, David Gileadi says...
nick wrote:
 What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples,
 tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.

I will donate an existing layout or make a new one.

Here's a mockup I've started, having been thinking much along the same lines as Kyle. It's loosely based on www.mono-project.com Hopefully it can help the discussion. http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg (forgive the imageshack hosting)

Cool!
Obviously the front page needs a lot more content.  I was thinking that 
the "What is D?" section should have links to the following:

   - Comparison
   - Examples
   - FAQ
   - Docs
   - License

Sounds good.
I also think there should be a small section before or after giving a 
quick explanation of what D is, why I should use it, maybe what 
platforms it works on, etc.

Good idea.
The "What's New" section might contain the latest releases from the 
changelog as well as any community announcements (maybe culled from 
d.announce).  Of course this would require someone to maintain the list :)

Another good idea.
Finally I beg Walter's forgiveness for modifying the DigitalMars logo. 
I just think it looks better this way :)

I think it's an improvement, too. jcc7
May 03 2006
prev sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
David Gileadi wrote:
 nick wrote:
  >> What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples,
  >> tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.

True.
  > I will donate an existing layout or make a new one.

From what the mockup looks like, you'd be a good choice for the job!
 Here's a mockup I've started, having been thinking much along the same 
 lines as Kyle.  It's loosely based on www.mono-project.com  Hopefully it 
 can help the discussion.
 
 http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg (forgive the 
 imageshack hosting)

It really looks nice! It kind of immediately invites you to pay a visit. Oh, and that particular style also (IMHO) reflects seriousness, dependability, real professionals behind it, and overall something that isn't dying away tomorrow.
 Obviously the front page needs a lot more content.  I was thinking that 
 the "What is D?" section should have links to the following:
 
   - Comparison
   - Examples
   - FAQ
   - Docs
   - License
 
 I also think there should be a small section before or after giving a 
 quick explanation of what D is, why I should use it, maybe what 
 platforms it works on, etc.
 
 The "What's New" section might contain the latest releases from the 
 changelog as well as any community announcements (maybe culled from 
 d.announce). 

Definitely! It's just imperative that the page contains something "new" or "fresh" each time you go see it. Stale pages are "so Eighties". ((I know the WWW was only invented in the nineties.))
 Of course this would require someone to maintain the list :)
 
 Finally I beg Walter's forgiveness for modifying the DigitalMars logo. I 
 just think it looks better this way :)

FWIW, I too think your version of the DM logo looks a lot better. It's also more balanced. And it puts fewer restraints on using it in different sizes tha the original, where the graphic quickly gets too small, or the word Mars too big. And it looks more like it's been designed by professionals. ((Sorry, Walter!))
May 04 2006
parent David Gileadi <foo bar.com> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:
 David Gileadi wrote:
 nick wrote:
  >> What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples,
  >> tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.

True.
  > I will donate an existing layout or make a new one.

From what the mockup looks like, you'd be a good choice for the job!

Thanks for the kind words! I'm a bit short on time right now--taking three classes this summer and working full time--so that's why I posted the unfinished version. However if there's interest I'll definitely continue work on this.
 Here's a mockup I've started, having been thinking much along the same 
 lines as Kyle.  It's loosely based on www.mono-project.com  Hopefully 
 it can help the discussion.

 http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg (forgive the 
 imageshack hosting)

It really looks nice! It kind of immediately invites you to pay a visit. Oh, and that particular style also (IMHO) reflects seriousness, dependability, real professionals behind it, and overall something that isn't dying away tomorrow.
 Obviously the front page needs a lot more content.  I was thinking 
 that the "What is D?" section should have links to the following:

   - Comparison
   - Examples
   - FAQ
   - Docs
   - License

 I also think there should be a small section before or after giving a 
 quick explanation of what D is, why I should use it, maybe what 
 platforms it works on, etc.

 The "What's New" section might contain the latest releases from the 
 changelog as well as any community announcements (maybe culled from 
 d.announce). 

Definitely! It's just imperative that the page contains something "new" or "fresh" each time you go see it. Stale pages are "so Eighties". ((I know the WWW was only invented in the nineties.))
 Of course this would require someone to maintain the list :)

 Finally I beg Walter's forgiveness for modifying the DigitalMars logo. 
 I just think it looks better this way :)

FWIW, I too think your version of the DM logo looks a lot better. It's also more balanced. And it puts fewer restraints on using it in different sizes tha the original, where the graphic quickly gets too small, or the word Mars too big. And it looks more like it's been designed by professionals. ((Sorry, Walter!))

May 04 2006
prev sibling parent Cris <central_p hotmail.com> writes:
 
 I mostly agree, and where I do, I agree very emphatically.
 
 The only point I disagree with is 3... A better D-man would be nice (sorry
 Walter) but changing the name is a bad idea.  The name "D" has already made
 significant inroads (see TPCI) and we don't want to loose that.
 

To change the name now is not too late and I also think it should be done before the language goes commercial. D sounds nice but not very convincing. Especially "The D Programming language" when googling... Try typing in google.com "Java", "Visual Basic", "C++", "Ruby", "Python", "Eiffel" and you might feel the difference! The Difference!!! Think once more, please, before regecting the idea. A successful name would be unique enough and noticable.
May 07 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
There is a post like this one every several days.

I think we need some sort of a notice on the digitalmars page that says
"People who want to help polish/improve D follow this link...".

The link would take you to a TODO list of things that need to happen for
D to become polished. That way we can channel the enthusiasm to
something productive.

Does such a  list already exist?
May 02 2006
parent reply Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Tue, 02 May 2006 18:20:45 -0700, nick wrote:

 There is a post like this one every several days.
 
 I think we need some sort of a notice on the digitalmars page that says
 "People who want to help polish/improve D follow this link...".
 
 The link would take you to a TODO list of things that need to happen for
 D to become polished. That way we can channel the enthusiasm to
 something productive.
 
 Does such a  list already exist?

I think one exists in the WIKI4D site, but if not, that is a good place to set one up. http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi -- Derek (skype: derek.j.parnell) Melbourne, Australia "Down with mediocracy!" 3/05/2006 11:57:35 AM
May 02 2006
parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
No offense to those running wiki4d, but it looks like an abandoned site
from mid 1990s. Anything posted on that site might as well have a huge
"don't pay attention to what I'm saying; this is out of date" label on it.

It's unfortunate indeed, because there is some good info there; it just
needs a visual update. Last I attempted something in that direction, I
was overzealous and apparently offended the man behind wiki4d.


Derek Parnell wrote:
 On Tue, 02 May 2006 18:20:45 -0700, nick wrote:
 
 There is a post like this one every several days.

 I think we need some sort of a notice on the digitalmars page that says
 "People who want to help polish/improve D follow this link...".

 The link would take you to a TODO list of things that need to happen for
 D to become polished. That way we can channel the enthusiasm to
 something productive.

 Does such a  list already exist?

I think one exists in the WIKI4D site, but if not, that is a good place to set one up. http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi

May 02 2006
next sibling parent reply Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Tue, 02 May 2006 19:38:16 -0700, nick wrote:

 No offense to those running wiki4d, but it looks like an abandoned site
 from mid 1990s. Anything posted on that site might as well have a huge
 "don't pay attention to what I'm saying; this is out of date" label on it.
 
 It's unfortunate indeed, because there is some good info there; it just
 needs a visual update. Last I attempted something in that direction, I
 was overzealous and apparently offended the man behind wiki4d.

I totally understand, however one mustn't confuse 'content' with 'form'. And as you say, this site contains some good stuff, it just looks like it couldn't. I'd also appreciate an improvement to the site's visual format but I still use the site for its content in spite of that. Oh, and by the way, to me it looks more like 1980's vintage that didn't want to bother a UI designer for help. -- Derek (skype: derek.j.parnell) Melbourne, Australia "Down with mediocrity!" 3/05/2006 12:54:57 PM
May 02 2006
parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
couple of gradients thing).
The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
divs, spans, etc.

I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.

However, I agree with this:

"What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples,
tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.
~John Demme"

Maybe we don't need flashy stuff, but we need to exude an air of
professionalism. Of course, I don't think this really matters until we
are approaching D0.8 or so.


Derek Parnell wrote:
 On Tue, 02 May 2006 19:38:16 -0700, nick wrote:
 
 No offense to those running wiki4d, but it looks like an abandoned site
 from mid 1990s. Anything posted on that site might as well have a huge
 "don't pay attention to what I'm saying; this is out of date" label on it.

 It's unfortunate indeed, because there is some good info there; it just
 needs a visual update. Last I attempted something in that direction, I
 was overzealous and apparently offended the man behind wiki4d.

I totally understand, however one mustn't confuse 'content' with 'form'. And as you say, this site contains some good stuff, it just looks like it couldn't. I'd also appreciate an improvement to the site's visual format but I still use the site for its content in spite of that. Oh, and by the way, to me it looks more like 1980's vintage that didn't want to bother a UI designer for help.

May 02 2006
next sibling parent reply Kyle Furlong <kylefurlong gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
 couple of gradients thing).
 The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
 last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
 divs, spans, etc.
 
 I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.
 
 However, I agree with this:
 
 "What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples,
 tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.
 ~John Demme"
 
 Maybe we don't need flashy stuff, but we need to exude an air of
 professionalism. Of course, I don't think this really matters until we
 are approaching D0.8 or so.
 
 
 Derek Parnell wrote:
 On Tue, 02 May 2006 19:38:16 -0700, nick wrote:

 No offense to those running wiki4d, but it looks like an abandoned site
 from mid 1990s. Anything posted on that site might as well have a huge
 "don't pay attention to what I'm saying; this is out of date" label on it.

 It's unfortunate indeed, because there is some good info there; it just
 needs a visual update. Last I attempted something in that direction, I
 was overzealous and apparently offended the man behind wiki4d.

And as you say, this site contains some good stuff, it just looks like it couldn't. I'd also appreciate an improvement to the site's visual format but I still use the site for its content in spite of that. Oh, and by the way, to me it looks more like 1980's vintage that didn't want to bother a UI designer for help.


You understand the version numbers yes? We are at the 155th revision thus 0.155. If Walter releases a new revision twice a month, it would take 26.875 years to reach 0.8. -- Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB "D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright
May 02 2006
parent reply Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists gmail.com> writes:
Kyle Furlong wrote:
 [snip]
 You understand the version numbers yes?
 
 We are at the 155th revision thus 0.155. If Walter releases a new
 revision twice a month, it would take 26.875 years to reach 0.8.
 

But if 0.155 is the 155th revision, wouldn't that make 0.8 the eighth revision? And thus, wouldn't we have passed that 26 years ago? :P -- Daniel "Not contributing anything, really" -- v1sw5+8Yhw5ln4+5pr6OFma8u6+7Lw4Tm6+7l6+7D a2Xs3MSr2e4/6+7t4TNSMb6HTOp5en5g6RAHCP http://hackerkey.com/
May 03 2006
parent reply Kyle Furlong <kylefurlong gmail.com> writes:
Daniel Keep wrote:
 
 Kyle Furlong wrote:
 [snip]
 You understand the version numbers yes?

 We are at the 155th revision thus 0.155. If Walter releases a new
 revision twice a month, it would take 26.875 years to reach 0.8.

But if 0.155 is the 155th revision, wouldn't that make 0.8 the eighth revision? And thus, wouldn't we have passed that 26 years ago? :P -- Daniel "Not contributing anything, really"

I suppose its ambiguous, as there is no specification. In any case, my point is that .8 is not coming any time soon. -- Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB "D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright
May 03 2006
parent jcc7 <jcc7_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <e3ascp$dac$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Kyle Furlong says...
Daniel Keep wrote:
 
 Kyle Furlong wrote:
 [snip]
 You understand the version numbers yes?

 We are at the 155th revision thus 0.155. If Walter releases a new
 revision twice a month, it would take 26.875 years to reach 0.8.

But if 0.155 is the 155th revision, wouldn't that make 0.8 the eighth revision? And thus, wouldn't we have passed that 26 years ago? :P -- Daniel "Not contributing anything, really"

I suppose its ambiguous, as there is no specification. In any case, my point is that .8 is not coming any time soon.

I was under the impression that we skipped from 0.7 to 0.10 (skipping 0.8 and 0.9). ;) 28 Dec 2001: D/2462 0.7 02 Jan 2002: D/2503 0.10 jcc7
May 03 2006
prev sibling parent reply Justin C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
 couple of gradients thing).
 The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
 last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
 divs, spans, etc.
 
 I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.

It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough. I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages. http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement. We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination. -- jcc7
May 02 2006
next sibling parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Justin - I will come up with a simple layout as a plain html/css
template (give me a couple days). Then, if the layout looks good to you
and others, we can have a go at using that with the wiki4d template
system and see what that produces.

I assume the wiki4d template is just an HTML page with some sort of
<?php insert snippet of content here?> type tag.


 We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be
 pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.

be informative and have the appearance of your "normal professional webpage".
May 02 2006
parent Justin C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 Justin - I will come up with a simple layout as a plain html/css
 template (give me a couple days). Then, if the layout looks good to you
 and others, we can have a go at using that with the wiki4d template
 system and see what that produces.

That'd be fine. Also, what you could do is create a new template at Wiki4D. That's what I did under my folder when I was testing the system out: http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?JustinCalvarese/Template When I thought it was ready for prime time, I copied it to the DocComments folder and set it up as the template using the Context subpage.
 I assume the wiki4d template is just an HTML page with some sort of
 <?php insert snippet of content here?> type tag.

Well, I think it actually runs on Perl, but it's the same kind of idea. There aren't really any instructions for this, but I figured it out by some examples. And I think examples can explain it well enough. This is the current template: http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?DocComments/WikiTemplate Here is a newer templates from another ProWiki site: http://www.prowiki.org/prowiki/wiki.cgi?Admin/Template/SB The old template is mentioned here (in case you were curious): digitalmars.D/33159
 We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be
 pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.

be informative and have the appearance of your "normal professional webpage".

You have a good point. In any case, I was trying to split the difference between the Digital Mars website and MediaWiki's "monobook" style. -- jcc7
May 02 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent Hasan Aljudy <hasan.aljudy gmail.com> writes:
Justin C Calvarese wrote:
 nick wrote:
 
 I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
 couple of gradients thing).
 The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
 last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
 divs, spans, etc.

 I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.

It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough. I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages. http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement. We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.

Wow, omg, it's looks TONS better now!! keep it up!! To be honest: Now for the first time, I feel like I should take the time to read and contribute to wiki4D
May 02 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Tue, 02 May 2006 22:42:57 -0500, Justin C Calvarese wrote:

 nick wrote:
 I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
 couple of gradients thing).
 The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
 last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
 divs, spans, etc.
 
 I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.

It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough. I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages. http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement. We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.

Yes it is better. How can 'we' help you further improve the templates? By that I mean, what capabilities are there in the template system? How does it work? etc ... -- Derek (skype: derek.j.parnell) Melbourne, Australia "Down with mediocracy!" 3/05/2006 2:03:52 PM
May 02 2006
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Derek Parnell wrote:
 On Tue, 02 May 2006 22:42:57 -0500, Justin C Calvarese wrote:
 I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I 
 had been trying out with the DocComments pages.

 http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage

 Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't 
 think it's an improvement.


I agree it's already a big improvement.
 We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be 
 pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.


My problem is both a lack of imagination and a lack of knowledge of how style sheets, etc., work.
 Yes it is better. How can 'we' help you further improve the templates?
 By that I mean, what capabilities are there in the template system? How
 does it work? etc ...

Is it the same wiki as drives www.wikipedia.org? I like the look & feel of that site. It's simple and elegant. Most of the Digital Mars site is now driven by Ddoc templates and style sheets. I'm open to suggestions for improvements via changing the style sheets and templates.
May 02 2006
parent Justin C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:
 Derek Parnell wrote:
 On Tue, 02 May 2006 22:42:57 -0500, Justin C Calvarese wrote:
 I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I 
 had been trying out with the DocComments pages.

 http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage

 Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you 
 don't think it's an improvement.


I agree it's already a big improvement.

Great.
 We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be 
 pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.


My problem is both a lack of imagination and a lack of knowledge of how style sheets, etc., work.

Yeah, style sheets are tricky.
 Yes it is better. How can 'we' help you further improve the templates?
 By that I mean, what capabilities are there in the template system? How
 does it work? etc ...

Is it the same wiki as drives www.wikipedia.org? I like the look & feel of that site. It's simple and elegant.

No, it's not. Wikipedia runs on MediaWiki, and Wiki4D runs on ProWiki. Different wiki software has different strengths and weaknesses. I've worked more with ProWiki than any other wiki software, and I've become quite biased towards it. I'm not as familiar with MediaWiki. So when I try to use Media wiki I always find that I'm trying to get it to accept the ProWiki way of doing things and feeling unsatisfied.
 Most of the Digital Mars site is now driven by Ddoc templates and style 
 sheets. I'm open to suggestions for improvements via changing the style 
 sheets and templates.

The Digital Mars website has improved a lot from what it used to look like. I think there's still room for improvement, but I think it's in much better shape than it used to be. -- jcc7
May 02 2006
prev sibling parent Justin C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
Derek Parnell wrote:
 On Tue, 02 May 2006 22:42:57 -0500, Justin C Calvarese wrote:
 
 nick wrote:
 I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
 couple of gradients thing).
 The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
 last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
 divs, spans, etc.

 I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.

I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages. http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement. We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.

Yes it is better. How can 'we' help you further improve the templates? By that I mean, what capabilities are there in the template system? How does it work? etc ...

I kind of figured out how it worked by trial-and-error, so I don't know how much I can teach you, but I tried to explain some of it in this post: digitalmars.D/37387 I guess the one sentence summary is that the "Context" page is where the configurations are stored (such as setting a template page). And looking at one template can explain how to create another template. I can try to explain more later, but most of what I know is already in the aforementioned post. -- jcc7
May 02 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
Justin C Calvarese wrote:
 nick wrote:
 I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
 couple of gradients thing).
 The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
 last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
 divs, spans, etc.

 I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.

It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough. I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages. http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement. We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.

It is an improvement, but I don't understand why the WordsAreAllRunningTogether for the links. I find that aspect quite ugly. I've seen that system used in other sites, and I just don't understand why it's done that way in the wiki. Is it a limitation of the Wiki? -JJR
May 02 2006
next sibling parent Kyle Furlong <kylefurlong gmail.com> writes:
John Reimer wrote:
 Justin C Calvarese wrote:
 nick wrote:
 I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
 couple of gradients thing).
 The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
 last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
 divs, spans, etc.

 I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.

It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough. I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages. http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement. We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.

It is an improvement, but I don't understand why the WordsAreAllRunningTogether for the links. I find that aspect quite ugly. I've seen that system used in other sites, and I just don't understand why it's done that way in the wiki. Is it a limitation of the Wiki? -JJR

I'm no wiki expert, but I think the PascalCase links are automatically set up? -- Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB "D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright
May 03 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
John Reimer wrote:
 It is an improvement, but I don't understand why the 
 WordsAreAllRunningTogether for the links.
 
 I find that aspect quite ugly.  I've seen that system used in other 
 sites, and I just don't understand why it's done that way in the wiki. 
 Is it a limitation of the Wiki?

The entire idea of a Wiki is that users (i.e. _the_readers_) do most of the writing. One can't expect them to be computer savvy. At the same time, it is imperative that the texts actually do contain links to other pages, wherever needed. (In other words, links should not remain uncreated just because "it is hard to do".) The simplest way to achieve this is, just have page names in CamelCase. Then any word in CamelCase is assumed a link. (It's not a matter of technology, it is entirely a matter of what is a simple enough way to create links, so that folks actually get around to doing it!) Invent an "easier" way, and you'll do the Wiki culture a big service.
May 03 2006
parent John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:
 John Reimer wrote:
 It is an improvement, but I don't understand why the 
 WordsAreAllRunningTogether for the links.

 I find that aspect quite ugly.  I've seen that system used in other 
 sites, and I just don't understand why it's done that way in the wiki. 
 Is it a limitation of the Wiki?

The entire idea of a Wiki is that users (i.e. _the_readers_) do most of the writing. One can't expect them to be computer savvy. At the same time, it is imperative that the texts actually do contain links to other pages, wherever needed. (In other words, links should not remain uncreated just because "it is hard to do".) The simplest way to achieve this is, just have page names in CamelCase. Then any word in CamelCase is assumed a link. (It's not a matter of technology, it is entirely a matter of what is a simple enough way to create links, so that folks actually get around to doing it!) Invent an "easier" way, and you'll do the Wiki culture a big service.

Thanks for the explanation. I just noticed CamelCase is everywhere in wikidom, with some exceptions (eg, Wikipedia?). I still think CamelCase looks horrible, despite the ease of use argument (which makes sense). I notice some links actually use "_" to get around the space problem, with rather inconsistant irregularity. Perhaps that is still difficult for new users? I assume that wiki's controlled by core groups of professional or knowledgeable users don't have to use CamelCase then, because, theoretically, they have the skill to implement the links in more eye-pleasing fashion? On the other hand, it appears that CamelCase in wiki sites has caught on almost as a standard for all users, no matter what their skill level be. That's really unfortunate. -JJR
May 03 2006
prev sibling parent reply jcc7 <jcc7_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <e39emr$qo2$1 digitaldaemon.com>, John Reimer says...
Justin C Calvarese wrote:
 nick wrote:
 I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
 couple of gradients thing).
 The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
 last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
 divs, spans, etc.

 I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.

It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough. I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages. http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement. We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.

It is an improvement, but I don't understand why the WordsAreAllRunningTogether for the links. I find that aspect quite ugly. I've seen that system used in other sites, and I just don't understand why it's done that way in the wiki. Is it a limitation of the Wiki?

It's supposed to be a beneficial feature of the wiki. The links can be renamed, though it takes some more effort. Is this better now? http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage jcc7
May 03 2006
parent reply John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
jcc7 wrote:

 It's supposed to be a beneficial feature of the wiki. The links can be renamed,
 though it takes some more effort.
 
 Is this better now?
 http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage
 
 jcc7

Much better! thank you, Justin! -JJR
May 03 2006
parent Peri Hankey <mpah thegreen.co.uk> writes:
John Reimer wrote:
 jcc7 wrote:
 
 It's supposed to be a beneficial feature of the wiki. The links can be 
 renamed,
 though it takes some more effort.

 Is this better now?
 http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage

 jcc7

Much better! thank you, Justin! -JJR

There was an earlier reference to the mediawiki software that is used in http://www.wikipedia.org. This avoids camelCase notation, and it has a really significant advantage - each page has four tabs: * the actual content * discussion about the content * a source/edit tab * a history tab. In a wiki that does not have per-page discussion features, the discussion tends to happen on the page, which will then look out of date unless someone cleans it all up, and in that case you lose the discussion, or run into problems of wikiquette - one person's outdated discussion may be another person's valuable contribution. As it happens, wikipedia was having problems just now :( But it also makes effective use of css. -- Peri Hankey mpah thegreen.co.uk http://languagemachine.sourceforge.net - The language machine
May 04 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent Kyle Furlong <kylefurlong gmail.com> writes:
Justin C Calvarese wrote:
 nick wrote:
 I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
 couple of gradients thing).
 The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
 last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
 divs, spans, etc.

 I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.

It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough. I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages. http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement. We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.

This is a good improvement. I will look into the template and see if I cant add some CSS goodness there. What do you think of having a vertical menu system instead? Drop shadows? New Logo? -- Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB "D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright
May 03 2006
prev sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeirosATgmail SPAM.com> writes:
Justin C Calvarese wrote:
 
 It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough.
 
 I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I 
 had been trying out with the DocComments pages.
 
 http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage
 
 Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't 
 think it's an improvement.
 
 We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be 
 pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.
 

I'm more concerned with content than with presentation, nonetheless the new template looks better and is welcome. -- Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
May 03 2006
prev sibling parent reply "charles" <admin tdjonline.com> writes:
 No offense to those running wiki4d, but it looks like an abandoned site
 from mid 1990s.

I totally agree, its not the content , its prowiki; it sucks. I know thats offense to someone, but compared with any other wiki it looks extremely lackluster. Its built on perl ? Trash it. I can host a new site if someone can move over the content -- prowiki looks awful and is impossible to navigate. ( sorry for offending anyone. ) Charlie "nick" <nick.atamas gmail.com> wrote in message news:e3952j$al5$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 No offense to those running wiki4d, but it looks like an abandoned site
 from mid 1990s. Anything posted on that site might as well have a huge
 "don't pay attention to what I'm saying; this is out of date" label on it.

 It's unfortunate indeed, because there is some good info there; it just
 needs a visual update. Last I attempted something in that direction, I
 was overzealous and apparently offended the man behind wiki4d.


 Derek Parnell wrote:
 On Tue, 02 May 2006 18:20:45 -0700, nick wrote:

 There is a post like this one every several days.

 I think we need some sort of a notice on the digitalmars page that says
 "People who want to help polish/improve D follow this link...".

 The link would take you to a TODO list of things that need to happen



 D to become polished. That way we can channel the enthusiasm to
 something productive.

 Does such a  list already exist?

I think one exists in the WIKI4D site, but if not, that is a good place


 set one up.

   http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi


May 03 2006
next sibling parent Frank Benoit <keinfarbton nospam.xyz> writes:
Another existing wiki is here

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:D

This one is called "book", but it is also a wiki, with a little bit
structure.

There are no limitations, it is not hosted and dependent on a single
person, mediawiki is widely accepted, ...
May 03 2006
prev sibling parent reply jcc7 <jcc7_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <e3adn8$2nbl$1 digitaldaemon.com>, charles says...
 No offense to those running wiki4d, but it looks like an abandoned site
 from mid 1990s.

I totally agree, its not the content , its prowiki; it sucks. I know thats offense to someone, but compared with any other wiki it looks extremely lackluster.

Charles, have you looked at Wiki4D today? (I changed the template last night.) http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage
Its built on perl ?  Trash it.  I can host a new site if someone can move
over the content -- prowiki looks awful and is impossible to navigate.

Come on now. Other that maybe the hint of .cgi in the URL, how would the average person even know what it's written in? It's probably written in Perl because the earliest wikis were written in Perl. If this really matters to you, Helmut has mentioned that he's thought about porting it to D (I don't remember if he still plans to do that). As to the navigation issue, that's probably my fault since I've created many of the pages and always end up putting random links everywhere. We probably need to rename a bunch of the pages or reorganize the content. But that's not ProWiki's fault. jcc7
May 03 2006
parent "charles" <admin tdjonline.com> writes:
A huge improvement yes.

ButWhatsWithAllTheCamelCaseing :P.

Charlie

"jcc7" <jcc7_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:e3ah77$2tr8$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 In article <e3adn8$2nbl$1 digitaldaemon.com>, charles says...
 No offense to those running wiki4d, but it looks like an abandoned site
 from mid 1990s.

I totally agree, its not the content , its prowiki; it sucks. I know


offense to someone,  but compared with any other wiki it looks extremely
lackluster.

Charles, have you looked at Wiki4D today? (I changed the template last

 http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage


Its built on perl ?  Trash it.  I can host a new site if someone can move
over the content -- prowiki looks awful and is impossible to navigate.

Come on now. Other that maybe the hint of .cgi in the URL, how would the

 person even know what it's written in? It's probably written in Perl

 earliest wikis were written in Perl. If this really matters to you, Helmut

 mentioned that he's thought about porting it to D (I don't remember if he

 plans to do that).

 As to the navigation issue, that's probably my fault since I've created

 the pages and always end up putting random links everywhere. We probably

 rename a bunch of the pages or reorganize the content. But that's not

 fault.

 jcc7

May 03 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Kyle Furlong wrote:
 I'm becoming more and more convinced that D needs a polished presence. 
 How did Java succeed? Marketing. Plain and simple, the first revisions 
 sucked, but got evangelized extremely effectively. How much better, 
 since we have a quality compiler, to market it.

Java also had a billion dollars behind it and pushing. And as they say in the Air Force, with enough power even a brick outhouse will fly <g>.
 I think I understand the attitude of Walter and some others. That is, 
 that the merits of the language are self evident to the people who it is 
 written for, e.g. those who seek will find. So from this point of view, 
 marketing is unnecessary, word of mouth about the merits of the language 
 will do this work for us.

That isn't my attitude at all. I spend probably half of each day evangelizing the language. This involves: 1) identifying influential people in the programming community who could be interested in D, and letting them know about it 2) talking with webmasters of relevant programming sites to try to get D mentioned on their sites 3) preparing presentations, giving them 4) watching for relevant discussions coming up outside of our local newsgroups 5) in general, trying to ensure that D has a strong presence on the internet I think this has been reasonably successful. A year ago, it was normal for people to have never heard of D. Now, it is normal for people to have heard of D, but not know much about it. The next step is to help them know more about it. I know some of you are out there doing the same thing, and that is very helpful. More would be better, of course!
 While I appreciate this feeling, this mode of operation will only gain 
 us a certain base of users, i.e. hobbyists and one man operations who 
 can afford to invest in a new language on just its merits. Everyone else 
 (read, the majority of the IT world) cannot form decisions only on the 
 merits of a compiler. Organizations need reassurances of a polished 
 presence. This means documentation, support, packaging, and marketing.

I agree, there's plenty of room for improvement there.
 To this end, I propose the formation of an organization/committee, 
 headed by Walter, to guide the process of creating this polished presence.
 
 Some things which this committee should consider are:
 
 1. Unified std library which is 100% covered and stable.
 
 Aside: I am strongly biased to creating this library out of Ares + 
 Mango. No offense Walter, but Sean and Kris' code is higher quality at 
 this point.

That's fine with me.
 2. Formation of a GUI /team/ to pick and/or develop further a cross 
 platform solution.
 
 Aside: It must be a team. DWT is stagnant because Shawn doesnt have 
 time, and no one else understands the code well enough to continue.
 
 3. Choice of a new mascot/revamp of D-man. Also consider a new name.
 
 Aside: I love the name D. But, the benefits of a name bigger than 2 
 letters are self evident, it should be considered.

I initially tried another name ("Mars"). Everyone called it D anyway. "D" fits exactly what it is, the next step after C++. Besides, there is far too much momentum already behind calling it D to think of changing. I know that googling "D" is hopeless, which is why I strongly encourage using the phrase "D programming language" as much as possible on D related postings and web pages.
 Also, D-man has 
 served us well. My initial reaction however, when I was first introduced 
 to him, was, "Wow, what a trashy mascot, how uncreative." Now that I'm 
 used to him, hes alright, but I seriously think we need to reconsider.

I'm not exactly a professional artist <g>.
 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of 
 www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from 
 the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals 
 of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of 
 www.php.net.

I like the look of php.net.
 Aside: I understand that Walter would like as much traffic to drive his 
 click ads, but we could work something out, if it is a big issue. Also, 
 this site could also be owned by DigitalMars as well.
 
 I'm interested to hear dissenting opinions as well as Walter's plans for 
 DigitalMars' involvement in the pursuit of D's success in the wider 
 world of computing.

Plans for improvement should plan on it being implementable on an incremental basis.
May 02 2006
next sibling parent Kyle Furlong <kylefurlong gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:
 Kyle Furlong wrote:
 I'm becoming more and more convinced that D needs a polished presence. 
 How did Java succeed? Marketing. Plain and simple, the first revisions 
 sucked, but got evangelized extremely effectively. How much better, 
 since we have a quality compiler, to market it.

Java also had a billion dollars behind it and pushing. And as they say in the Air Force, with enough power even a brick outhouse will fly <g>.
 I think I understand the attitude of Walter and some others. That is, 
 that the merits of the language are self evident to the people who it 
 is written for, e.g. those who seek will find. So from this point of 
 view, marketing is unnecessary, word of mouth about the merits of the 
 language will do this work for us.

That isn't my attitude at all. I spend probably half of each day evangelizing the language. This involves: 1) identifying influential people in the programming community who could be interested in D, and letting them know about it 2) talking with webmasters of relevant programming sites to try to get D mentioned on their sites 3) preparing presentations, giving them 4) watching for relevant discussions coming up outside of our local newsgroups 5) in general, trying to ensure that D has a strong presence on the internet I think this has been reasonably successful. A year ago, it was normal for people to have never heard of D. Now, it is normal for people to have heard of D, but not know much about it. The next step is to help them know more about it. I know some of you are out there doing the same thing, and that is very helpful. More would be better, of course!
 While I appreciate this feeling, this mode of operation will only gain 
 us a certain base of users, i.e. hobbyists and one man operations who 
 can afford to invest in a new language on just its merits. Everyone 
 else (read, the majority of the IT world) cannot form decisions only 
 on the merits of a compiler. Organizations need reassurances of a 
 polished presence. This means documentation, support, packaging, and 
 marketing.

I agree, there's plenty of room for improvement there.
 To this end, I propose the formation of an organization/committee, 
 headed by Walter, to guide the process of creating this polished 
 presence.

 Some things which this committee should consider are:

 1. Unified std library which is 100% covered and stable.

 Aside: I am strongly biased to creating this library out of Ares + 
 Mango. No offense Walter, but Sean and Kris' code is higher quality at 
 this point.

That's fine with me.
 2. Formation of a GUI /team/ to pick and/or develop further a cross 
 platform solution.

 Aside: It must be a team. DWT is stagnant because Shawn doesnt have 
 time, and no one else understands the code well enough to continue.

 3. Choice of a new mascot/revamp of D-man. Also consider a new name.

 Aside: I love the name D. But, the benefits of a name bigger than 2 
 letters are self evident, it should be considered.

I initially tried another name ("Mars"). Everyone called it D anyway. "D" fits exactly what it is, the next step after C++. Besides, there is far too much momentum already behind calling it D to think of changing. I know that googling "D" is hopeless, which is why I strongly encourage using the phrase "D programming language" as much as possible on D related postings and web pages.
 Also, D-man has served us well. My initial reaction however, when I 
 was first introduced to him, was, "Wow, what a trashy mascot, how 
 uncreative." Now that I'm used to him, hes alright, but I seriously 
 think we need to reconsider.

I'm not exactly a professional artist <g>.
 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of 
 www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from 
 the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals 
 of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of 
 www.php.net.

I like the look of php.net.
 Aside: I understand that Walter would like as much traffic to drive 
 his click ads, but we could work something out, if it is a big issue. 
 Also, this site could also be owned by DigitalMars as well.

 I'm interested to hear dissenting opinions as well as Walter's plans 
 for DigitalMars' involvement in the pursuit of D's success in the 
 wider world of computing.

Plans for improvement should plan on it being implementable on an incremental basis.

Well, I definitely don't expect or even want overnight changes. I agree that the plan should be ramped up with careful thought. As to your evangelizing efforts, I'm sorry that I underestimated your investment. Please continue the good work, as I do see the progress that D has been making in getting mindshare. -- Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB "D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright
May 03 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:
 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of
 www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from
 the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals
 of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of
 www.php.net.

I like the look of php.net.

I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than 15 minutes worth of work: http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png
 Most of the Digital Mars site is now driven by Ddoc templates and style
sheets. I'm open to suggestions for improvements via changing the style sheets
and templates. 

One suggestion would be, instead of generating code like this: <pre class="d_code"><span style="color:blue">int</span></pre> you should say <span class = "identifier">. Then define "identifier" as being blue in the stylesheet: .d_code .identifier{ color: blue; } It's much more flexible that way because the appearance of the site can be changed by changing the .css file.
May 03 2006
next sibling parent reply Kyle Furlong <kylefurlong gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 Walter Bright wrote:
 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of
 www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from
 the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals
 of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of
 www.php.net.


I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than 15 minutes worth of work: http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png
 Most of the Digital Mars site is now driven by Ddoc templates and style
sheets. I'm open to suggestions for improvements via changing the style sheets
and templates. 

One suggestion would be, instead of generating code like this: <pre class="d_code"><span style="color:blue">int</span></pre> you should say <span class = "identifier">. Then define "identifier" as being blue in the stylesheet: .d_code .identifier{ color: blue; } It's much more flexible that way because the appearance of the site can be changed by changing the .css file.

Yes, is it just me, or does half the world still not understand the benefits of the separation of document structure and presentation? BTW, nice layout, looks very /powerful/. (Big red D) -- Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB "D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright
May 03 2006
parent kellywilson nowhere.com writes:
In article <e39n1d$19j3$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Kyle Furlong says...
nick wrote:
 Walter Bright wrote:
 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of
 www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from
 the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals
 of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of
 www.php.net.


I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than 15 minutes worth of work: http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png
 Most of the Digital Mars site is now driven by Ddoc templates and style
sheets. I'm open to suggestions for improvements via changing the style sheets
and templates. 

One suggestion would be, instead of generating code like this: <pre class="d_code"><span style="color:blue">int</span></pre> you should say <span class = "identifier">. Then define "identifier" as being blue in the stylesheet: .d_code .identifier{ color: blue; } It's much more flexible that way because the appearance of the site can be changed by changing the .css file.

Yes, is it just me, or does half the world still not understand the benefits of the separation of document structure and presentation? BTW, nice layout, looks very /powerful/. (Big red D) -- Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB "D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright

I agree with Kyle. It looks powerful and well organised. It also looks a little more 21st century ;) Good work. Kelly Wilson
May 03 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 Most of the Digital Mars site is now driven by Ddoc templates and style
sheets. I'm open to suggestions for improvements via changing the style sheets
and templates. 

One suggestion would be, instead of generating code like this: <pre class="d_code"><span style="color:blue">int</span></pre> you should say <span class = "identifier">. Then define "identifier" as being blue in the stylesheet: .d_code .identifier{ color: blue; } It's much more flexible that way because the appearance of the site can be changed by changing the .css file.

I'll make the change. Thanks!
May 03 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply jcc7 <jcc7_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <e39mg7$18j9$1 digitaldaemon.com>, nick says...
Walter Bright wrote:
 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of
 www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from
 the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals
 of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of
 www.php.net.

I like the look of php.net.

I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than 15 minutes worth of work: http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png

I have a couple of quick criticisms. 1. I like the big "D", but it takes up a lot of space (much screen real estate is wasted on the sides). Shrink it down to the size of the PHP logo at http://www.php.net/, and it'd be great. 2. I like the look of the tabs at the top, but I'm not sure how'd we'd get them to work with the template or what they'd say for Wiki4D. But perhaps the Digital Mars website could benefit from something like that, though. Also, the color scheme seemed a little dark to me, but that's probably more of a statement about my personal taste than a criticism of what you've done. jcc7
May 03 2006
parent reply Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
jcc7 wrote:
 
 Also, the color scheme seemed a little dark to me, but that's probably more of
a
 statement about my personal taste than a criticism of what you've done.

Personally, I prefer dark color schemes. For example, one of my favorite websites is http://arstechnica.com and I use the toggle button in the upper right to view the "white on gray" scheme instead of the default. I agree that such schemes tend to "pop" a bit less than brighter ones, but they also make for less eyestrain. Ideally, a website should offer both as options as Ars Technica does. Sean
May 03 2006
next sibling parent jcc7 <jcc7_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <e3alr3$4sc$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Sean Kelly says...
jcc7 wrote:
 
 Also, the color scheme seemed a little dark to me, but that's probably more of
a
 statement about my personal taste than a criticism of what you've done.

Personally, I prefer dark color schemes. For example, one of my favorite websites is http://arstechnica.com and I use the toggle button in the upper right to view the "white on gray" scheme instead of the default. I agree that such schemes tend to "pop" a bit less than brighter ones, but they also make for less eyestrain. Ideally, a website should offer both as options as Ars Technica does.

Providing multiple options is a good idea, but we can still argue about which should be the default. ;) jcc7
May 03 2006
prev sibling parent reply Brad Anderson <brad dsource.org> writes:
Sean Kelly wrote:
 Ideally, a
 website should offer both as options as Ars Technica does.

Impressive site css. I imagine dsource will be implementing some of these toggles as well. BA
May 03 2006
parent reply Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeirosATgmail SPAM.com> writes:
Brad Anderson wrote:
 Sean Kelly wrote:
 Ideally, a
 website should offer both as options as Ars Technica does.

Impressive site css. I imagine dsource will be implementing some of these toggles as well. BA

Try this for a great show of the potential of CSS and separation of content and presentation: http://www.csszengarden.com/ :) -- Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
May 03 2006
next sibling parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 Try this for a great show of the potential of CSS and separation of
 content and presentation:
 http://www.csszengarden.com/
 :)
 

Actually most(all?) of the css designs on that site go against the point of CSS, which is that websites should "flow". You can resize my layout and it will remain readable. If you change the font size(ctrl+mouse_wheel), everything just gets bigger but stays pretty much the same (except the big D).
May 03 2006
parent Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
nick wrote:
 Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 
Try this for a great show of the potential of CSS and separation of
content and presentation:
http://www.csszengarden.com/

Actually most(all?) of the css designs on that site go against the point of CSS, which is that websites should "flow". You can resize my layout and it will remain readable. If you change the font size(ctrl+mouse_wheel), everything just gets bigger but stays pretty much the same (except the big D).

How true! There is however a psychological problem. Seems a lot of people actually feel that a fixed-size layout "looks" more professional. Which I completely disagree with, of course. As a computer professional, I tend to (agreeing with you) think that a layout that "flows" and still looks good in any size, is the top of professionalism.
May 05 2006
prev sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 
 Try this for a great show of the potential of CSS and separation of 
 content and presentation:
 http://www.csszengarden.com/

Ouch! I used to think I know something about CSS and the separation of content from presentation. This site simply embarrassed me. --- So, what Digital Mars, most of us, and my own sites in particular should do, is: we ought to redo our sites in trivial HTML, and then get a round of offers from CSS Designers! By the time the site as such is "complete and ready", the CSS designer can give one an exact quote. Everybody saves money, time, and effort. --- As to D sites, something of the same might do the trick. That is, if a D site runs Wiki, or even a self-made web engine, then just see to it that the only formatting is the span tags. Then it would be convenient and easy for those (not of us) who have an artistic eye, to figure out and suggest worthy visual designs.
May 04 2006
parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:
 Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 Try this for a great show of the potential of CSS and separation of
 content and presentation:
 http://www.csszengarden.com/

Ouch! I used to think I know something about CSS and the separation of content from presentation. This site simply embarrassed me.

Again, I'd like to point out that none of those designs scale properly(ctrl+wheel to see what I mean). This is largely because CSS is inflexible, but the fact remains. Although they sure are pretty.
May 04 2006
parent reply Lucas Goss <lgoss007 gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 Georg Wrede wrote:
 Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 Try this for a great show of the potential of CSS and separation of
 content and presentation:
 http://www.csszengarden.com/

I used to think I know something about CSS and the separation of content from presentation. This site simply embarrassed me.

Again, I'd like to point out that none of those designs scale properly(ctrl+wheel to see what I mean). This is largely because CSS is inflexible, but the fact remains. Although they sure are pretty.

They seemed to scale fine for me. However some of the designs aren't as scalable as others, but I don't think that is because of CSS. How is CSS inflexible? And since we're talking about CSS... here's some sites I've found useful: http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/ http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/ http://www.alistapart.com/ http://www.wellstyled.com/ http://www.positioniseverything.net/ Lucas
May 04 2006
parent nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Lucas Goss wrote:
 nick wrote:
 Georg Wrede wrote:
 Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 Try this for a great show of the potential of CSS and separation of
 content and presentation:
 http://www.csszengarden.com/

I used to think I know something about CSS and the separation of content from presentation. This site simply embarrassed me.

Again, I'd like to point out that none of those designs scale properly(ctrl+wheel to see what I mean). This is largely because CSS is inflexible, but the fact remains. Although they sure are pretty.

They seemed to scale fine for me.

However some of the designs aren't as
 scalable as others, but I don't think that is because of CSS. How is CSS
 inflexible?

Don't get me wrong; I think CSS is a step in the right direction. This isn't really the place for CSS discussion, but here is a summary of what annoys me about it: 1. Positioning is often very hard, requires more hacking for compatibility than tables do. /* IE5 Mac Hack... so terrible \ */ 2. You are only allowed one background per div; you should be allowed like 8 to get the desired effect.
 And since we're talking about CSS...
 here's some sites I've found useful:
 http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/
 http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/
 http://www.alistapart.com/
 http://www.wellstyled.com/
 http://www.positioniseverything.net/

May 04 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
nick wrote:
 Walter Bright wrote:
 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of
 www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from
 the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals
 of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of
 www.php.net.


I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than 15 minutes worth of work: http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png

Very slick. It's amazing what a bit of formatting can do for overall appeal. Sean
May 03 2006
prev sibling parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted
 some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than
 15 minutes worth of work:
 
 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png

Had a bit more time so I followed up on that previous layout(Try changing the font size: ctrl+wheel.): http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html I'll admit it up front, there is 1 table in there so that I don't have to do any crazy CSS hacks. Any criticism? (too dark, D too big, etc.) Anyone interested in using something like this?
May 03 2006
next sibling parent John Reimer <terminal.node gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 nick wrote:
 I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted
 some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than
 15 minutes worth of work:

 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png

Had a bit more time so I followed up on that previous layout(Try changing the font size: ctrl+wheel.): http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html I'll admit it up front, there is 1 table in there so that I don't have to do any crazy CSS hacks. Any criticism? (too dark, D too big, etc.) Anyone interested in using something like this?

Wow, that is really nice! I think it's the best example yet. -JJR
May 03 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent Kyle Furlong <kylefurlong gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 nick wrote:
 I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted
 some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than
 15 minutes worth of work:

 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png

Had a bit more time so I followed up on that previous layout(Try changing the font size: ctrl+wheel.): http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html I'll admit it up front, there is 1 table in there so that I don't have to do any crazy CSS hacks. Any criticism? (too dark, D too big, etc.) Anyone interested in using something like this?

Perhaps Walter could use this for www.digitalmars.com/d/ ? -- Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB "D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright
May 03 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent Justin C Calvarese <technocrat7 gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 nick wrote:
 I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted
 some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than
 15 minutes worth of work:

 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png

Had a bit more time so I followed up on that previous layout(Try changing the font size: ctrl+wheel.): http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html

Wow! Very cool. I especially like the C++ and D "watermarks" in the code sections.
 I'll admit it up front, there is 1 table in there so that I don't have
 to do any crazy CSS hacks.
 
 Any criticism? (too dark, D too big, etc.)

I may be the only one, but I still think the D is too large. It bothers me to see so much empty space at the top of the page. It means I'd have to do that much more scrolling to read a page. :( Maybe it could at least be moved to the left and have something useful placed beside it.
 Anyone interested in using something like this?

Yes, I think it's a good candidate for the official Digital Mars website and/or Wiki4D. -- jcc7
May 03 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent "charles" <admin tdjonline.com> writes:
Very cool.


"nick" <nick.atamas gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e3bu25$28ph$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 nick wrote:
 I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted
 some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than
 15 minutes worth of work:

 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png

Had a bit more time so I followed up on that previous layout(Try changing the font size: ctrl+wheel.): http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html I'll admit it up front, there is 1 table in there so that I don't have to do any crazy CSS hacks. Any criticism? (too dark, D too big, etc.) Anyone interested in using something like this?

May 04 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeirosATgmail SPAM.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 nick wrote:
 I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted
 some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than
 15 minutes worth of work:

 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png

Had a bit more time so I followed up on that previous layout(Try changing the font size: ctrl+wheel.): http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html I'll admit it up front, there is 1 table in there so that I don't have to do any crazy CSS hacks. Any criticism? (too dark, D too big, etc.) Anyone interested in using something like this?

I don't like it. That D is a huge waste of (vertical) space [the header looks like propaganda for some dystopian politicial/social regime :p ]. Even if the D image has content on the sides it will still be too big. Also, what is the content layout relationship between the tab navigation, and the left-column navigation? Are they at the same level, or which one is hierarchically superior? This aspect is quite important. I also don't like the pretty round shape of the tabs (too MacOSX'y?), altough I admit that this one is a personal and subjective opinion. (like my overall abhorring of MacOSX like looks) -- Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
May 04 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply clayasaurus <clayasaurus gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 nick wrote:
 I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted
 some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than
 15 minutes worth of work:

 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png

Had a bit more time so I followed up on that previous layout(Try changing the font size: ctrl+wheel.): http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html I'll admit it up front, there is 1 table in there so that I don't have to do any crazy CSS hacks. Any criticism? (too dark, D too big, etc.) Anyone interested in using something like this?

Get rid of the D at the top and when you click on links make sure the box outline doesn't show up. Other than that it's good.
May 04 2006
parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
clayasaurus wrote:
 nick wrote:

 Get rid of the D at the top and when you click on links make sure the
 box outline doesn't show up. Other than that it's good.

Yeah, I can see that the big D is getting no love at all. The boxes around the links is firefox's doing; not mine. They don't show up in IE (or Safari if I recall correctly). Firefox draws a box around every link you click. If there is a hack around that, let me know and I'll put it in.
May 04 2006
next sibling parent reply Deewiant <deewiant.doesnotlike.spam gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 Yeah, I can see that the big D is getting no love at all.
 

It'll probably involve more tables to get this done well enough, but I suggest moving it to the top of the sidebar currently at the left. Then you can bump the rest of the page up quite a bit, only the menu being somewhat lower than the rest. D'll still be at the top, but not in the way, like it currently is. You might have to make it a bit smaller for it to fit properly, but I don't think that matters. Also, I'd suggest an <img> tag with alt text instead of a background image as it currently is: with images off, or a browser that doesn't show them at all, there's nothing at the top of the page remotely resembling a header. <nitpick> Your HTML doesn't validate: if you're going to specify a doctype why not conform to it? Might as well leave it out unless you're going to fix it. I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think you need those &nbsp; entities in the banner and sash divs. If you can, move the header's HTML code to the bottom of the file: in a text-only browser, it's annoying to have to skip past the menu on every page. Then you can make a "skip to menu" link which is hidden with display: none (off the top of my head... I _think_ Lynx & co. display such anyway, but I'm not sure... it might be some other attribute, but it can be done). </nitpick> Other than that, the layout's quite good. <g>
May 04 2006
parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Deewiant wrote:
 nick wrote:
 Yeah, I can see that the big D is getting no love at all.



 It'll probably involve more tables to get this done well enough, but I suggest
 moving it to the top of the sidebar currently at the left...

 Also, I'd suggest an <img> tag with alt text instead of a background image as
it
 currently is: with images off, or a browser that doesn't show them at all,
 there's nothing at the top of the page remotely resembling a header.

that image configurable via CSS (as is common practice these days).
 <nitpick>
 Your HTML doesn't validate: if you're going to specify a doctype why not
conform
 to it? Might as well leave it out unless you're going to fix it.

point is well taken. I coded it by hand, and never did validate it. Thanks for the reminder.
 I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think you need those &nbsp; entities in the
 banner and sash divs.

 If you can, move the header's HTML code to the bottom of the file: in a
 text-only browser, it's annoying to have to skip past the menu on every page.
 Then you can make a "skip to menu" link which is hidden with display: none (off
 the top of my head... I _think_ Lynx & co. display such anyway, but I'm not
 sure... it might be some other attribute, but it can be done).

tweaking html/css and productivity.
 Other than that, the layout's quite good. <g>

Thank you for the constructive criticism.
May 04 2006
parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 Deewiant wrote:
 
 ...suggestions...


Thank you for the constructive criticism.

I made some changes. Thoughs? Do you think it's good enough? http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html
May 04 2006
next sibling parent reply Deewiant <deewiant.doesnotlike.spam gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 nick wrote:
 Deewiant wrote:

 ...suggestions...



I made some changes. Thoughs? Do you think it's good enough? http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html

Definitely better, in my opinion. You changed the location of the 'D' in a different way than what I was thinking of, which is why you didn't need the tables, but what you did actually seems better than my thoughts, so kudos for that. The stuff in the footer (Home, News, Products, About, Contact, And other things that belong at the bottom) doesn't show up too well, I almost missed them completely. The black background is too dark IMO. <nitpick> Still doesn't validate. Too bad about IE's box model. Without images, the visited links in the top menu (the tabs) have too little contrast against the dark background. I'd suggest changing their background-color as well as background-url. Every other CSS class/id actually has meaning except for the two in the new title: class="bright" and class="dark". It's so rare to find a site that actually does this correctly that I'd really like to have it done: just rename them to something like "title_d" and "title_prog" or whatever, I think you know what I mean. That title should be a <h1> instead of a <div>. Slap on display:block and it should work the same, but the page will be more semantically correct. I'm not sure if this is of much importance any longer, but the page is a bit too wide for an 800x600 resolution, at least with the default font styles - one can always make fonts smaller to make it fit better, but it might still be annoying. The minimum viewport width to display the page in Firefox without a horizontal scrollbar seems to be 896 pixels. </nitpick>
May 05 2006
parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Deewiant wrote:
 nick wrote:
 nick wrote:
 Deewiant wrote:

 ...suggestions...



http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html


 The stuff in the footer (Home, News, Products, About, Contact, And other things
 that belong at the bottom) doesn't show up too well, I almost missed them
 completely. The black background is too dark IMO.

don't want distracting the user anyway; the mock content is a big misleading. The Home, News, Products would ideally be a duplicate of the real nav menu, so it would be OK to miss it. I could kick up the contrast though.
 Still doesn't validate. Too bad about IE's box model.

 Without images, the visited links in the top menu (the tabs) have too little
 contrast against the dark background. I'd suggest changing their
 background-color as well as background-url.

color as regular links.
 Every other CSS class/id actually has meaning except for the two in the new
 title: class="bright" and class="dark". It's so rare to find a site that
 actually does this correctly that I'd really like to have it done: just rename
 them to something like "title_d" and "title_prog" or whatever, I think you know
 what I mean.

 That title should be a <h1> instead of a <div>. Slap on display:block and it
 should work the same, but the page will be more semantically correct.

 I'm not sure if this is of much importance any longer, but the page is a bit
too
 wide for an 800x600 resolution, at least with the default font styles - one can
 always make fonts smaller to make it fit better, but it might still be
annoying.
 The minimum viewport width to display the page in Firefox without a horizontal
 scrollbar seems to be 896 pixels.

Again, thanks for the input. I'll try to fix all that later tonight.
May 05 2006
next sibling parent Deewiant <deewiant.doesnotlike.spam gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 Ah... interesting point. I thought I made the visited links the same
 color as regular links.

This is considered bad design: visited links are incorporated into browsers for a reason. If you meant only the menu, instead of site-wide, then I'd say that's OK, though: I find it only really matters when you have in-text links with differing text but the same target location. True purists would probably still whine, but even I draw the line somewhere. <g>
 Again, thanks for the input. I'll try to fix all that later tonight.

Not a problem. By the way, if you need help with anything, feel free to ask; you seem to be doing fine by yourself, so I'm craftily using you to fix the site's design to my own specifications <g>, but if you have any ideas of your own that you have problems with or whatever, I can mess around with the template as well. What browsers are you testing with?
May 05 2006
prev sibling parent reply "Alberto Simon" <lugaidster gmail.com> writes:
I liked the watermarks and inspired myself to use them on my own blog 
(http://albet.blogdns.com) I hope you don't mind me using your idea, if it 
bothers you, I'll remove them.

Regards,
Alberto Simˇn

"nick" <nick.atamas gmail.com> escribiˇ en el mensaje 
news:e3fq3v$19cl$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Deewiant wrote:
 nick wrote:
 nick wrote:
 Deewiant wrote:

 ...suggestions...



http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html


 The stuff in the footer (Home, News, Products, About, Contact, And other 
 things
 that belong at the bottom) doesn't show up too well, I almost missed them
 completely. The black background is too dark IMO.

don't want distracting the user anyway; the mock content is a big misleading. The Home, News, Products would ideally be a duplicate of the real nav menu, so it would be OK to miss it. I could kick up the contrast though.
 Still doesn't validate. Too bad about IE's box model.

 Without images, the visited links in the top menu (the tabs) have too 
 little
 contrast against the dark background. I'd suggest changing their
 background-color as well as background-url.

color as regular links.
 Every other CSS class/id actually has meaning except for the two in the 
 new
 title: class="bright" and class="dark". It's so rare to find a site that
 actually does this correctly that I'd really like to have it done: just 
 rename
 them to something like "title_d" and "title_prog" or whatever, I think 
 you know
 what I mean.

 That title should be a <h1> instead of a <div>. Slap on display:block and 
 it
 should work the same, but the page will be more semantically correct.

 I'm not sure if this is of much importance any longer, but the page is a 
 bit too
 wide for an 800x600 resolution, at least with the default font styles - 
 one can
 always make fonts smaller to make it fit better, but it might still be 
 annoying.
 The minimum viewport width to display the page in Firefox without a 
 horizontal
 scrollbar seems to be 896 pixels.

Again, thanks for the input. I'll try to fix all that later tonight.

May 06 2006
parent nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Alberto Simon wrote:
 I liked the watermarks and inspired myself to use them on my own blog 
 (http://albet.blogdns.com) I hope you don't mind me using your idea, if it 
 bothers you, I'll remove them.
 
 Regards,
 Alberto Simˇn

I assume you are referring to the ", the d and the c++ "watermarks" for the code and quotes. I didn't invent the watermark, but feel free to use them. =)
May 06 2006
prev sibling parent reply Kyle Furlong <kylefurlong gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 nick wrote:
 Deewiant wrote:

 ...suggestions...



I made some changes. Thoughs? Do you think it's good enough? http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html

Looks like a better use of space. Perhaps the "D" in "D programming" could be a scaled down version of the original? -- Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB "D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright
May 05 2006
parent reply "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"Kyle Furlong" <kylefurlong gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:e3fekb$6d9$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Looks like a better use of space. Perhaps the "D" in "D programming" could 
 be a scaled down version of the original?

I like that idea. Having the red D on there made it look a bit more interesting. I've always been fond of grey-and-red color schemes ;)
May 05 2006
parent nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
 "Kyle Furlong" <kylefurlong gmail.com> wrote in message 
 news:e3fekb$6d9$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Looks like a better use of space. Perhaps the "D" in "D programming" could 
 be a scaled down version of the original?

I like that idea. Having the red D on there made it look a bit more interesting. I've always been fond of grey-and-red color schemes ;)

and then reduce it for the subsequent pages.
May 05 2006
prev sibling parent reply clayasaurus <clayasaurus gmail.com> writes:
nick wrote:
 clayasaurus wrote:
 nick wrote:

 Get rid of the D at the top and when you click on links make sure the
 box outline doesn't show up. Other than that it's good.

Yeah, I can see that the big D is getting no love at all. The boxes around the links is firefox's doing; not mine. They don't show up in IE (or Safari if I recall correctly). Firefox draws a box around every link you click. If there is a hack around that, let me know and I'll put it in.

Add the onfocus='this.blur()' for the links, like... <a href = "link" onfocus="this.blur()">Link</a> or see this thread http://www.codingforums.com/archive/index.php?t-1801.html for other methods.
May 04 2006
parent reply clayasaurus <clayasaurus gmail.com> writes:
clayasaurus wrote:
 nick wrote:
 clayasaurus wrote:
 nick wrote:

 Get rid of the D at the top and when you click on links make sure the
 box outline doesn't show up. Other than that it's good.

Yeah, I can see that the big D is getting no love at all. The boxes around the links is firefox's doing; not mine. They don't show up in IE (or Safari if I recall correctly). Firefox draws a box around every link you click. If there is a hack around that, let me know and I'll put it in.

Add the onfocus='this.blur()' for the links, like... <a href = "link" onfocus="this.blur()">Link</a> or see this thread http://www.codingforums.com/archive/index.php?t-1801.html for other methods.

If you want, see what you score for http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/adesigner . Just use bugmenot.com for a login.
May 04 2006
parent nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
clayasaurus wrote:
 clayasaurus wrote:
 nick wrote:
 clayasaurus wrote:
 nick wrote:

 Get rid of the D at the top and when you click on links make sure the
 box outline doesn't show up. Other than that it's good.

Yeah, I can see that the big D is getting no love at all. The boxes around the links is firefox's doing; not mine. They don't show up in IE (or Safari if I recall correctly). Firefox draws a box around every link you click. If there is a hack around that, let me know and I'll put it in.

Add the onfocus='this.blur()' for the links, like... <a href = "link" onfocus="this.blur()">Link</a> or see this thread http://www.codingforums.com/archive/index.php?t-1801.html for other methods.

If you want, see what you score for http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/adesigner . Just use bugmenot.com for a login.

Thanks, that's really good to know. I don't know about removing the link outlines as some people might want to navigate with their tab key.
May 04 2006
prev sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
nick wrote:
 nick wrote:
 
I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted
some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than
15 minutes worth of work:

http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png

Had a bit more time so I followed up on that previous layout(Try changing the font size: ctrl+wheel.): http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html I'll admit it up front, there is 1 table in there so that I don't have to do any crazy CSS hacks. Any criticism? (too dark, D too big, etc.) Anyone interested in using something like this?

Getting better and better! Were are we going to end up??? :-)
May 05 2006
parent nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:
 nick wrote:
 nick wrote:

 I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted
 some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than
 15 minutes worth of work:

 http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png

Had a bit more time so I followed up on that previous layout(Try changing the font size: ctrl+wheel.): http://hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html I'll admit it up front, there is 1 table in there so that I don't have to do any crazy CSS hacks. Any criticism? (too dark, D too big, etc.) Anyone interested in using something like this?

Getting better and better! Were are we going to end up??? :-)

Law of diminishing returns tells me that I should stop messing with the layout at some point and get someone to use it. I just don't know who. Walter, would you like to use this layout for the official D homepage? Also, regarding the flowing layout: as far as I know, a fixed width layout is good because 60-80 characters is the ideal line width for reading; it's just that you want it to be resolution independent. My layout pretty much is.
May 05 2006
prev sibling parent reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:

 Kyle Furlong wrote:

 To this end, I propose the formation of an organization/committee, 
 headed by Walter, to guide the process of creating this polished 
 presence.

 Some things which this committee should consider are:

 1. Unified std library which is 100% covered and stable.

 Aside: I am strongly biased to creating this library out of Ares + 
 Mango. No offense Walter, but Sean and Kris' code is higher quality at 
 this point.

That's fine with me.

So, does this now mean that Phobos, GPhobos, and Ares should be merged ? As in, splitting the Phobos library up - into the 3 Ares subcomponents: * the runtime library (phobos.lib) ** the DMD compiler runtime (dmdrt.lib) ** the DMD garbage collector (dmdgc.lib) ** the standard library (ares.lib) I guess we have a few items to sort out then, like: linux/Unix/Posix, and what the module hierarchy should look like and other similar things. (but better support for posix and win32 headers would be a good change) Or did you just mean it as in "it's OK that theirs is higher quality" ? --anders
May 03 2006
parent Sean Kelly <sean f4.ca> writes:
Anders F Bj÷rklund wrote:
 Walter Bright wrote:
 
 Kyle Furlong wrote:

 To this end, I propose the formation of an organization/committee, 
 headed by Walter, to guide the process of creating this polished 
 presence.

 Some things which this committee should consider are:

 1. Unified std library which is 100% covered and stable.

 Aside: I am strongly biased to creating this library out of Ares + 
 Mango. No offense Walter, but Sean and Kris' code is higher quality 
 at this point.

That's fine with me.

So, does this now mean that Phobos, GPhobos, and Ares should be merged ? As in, splitting the Phobos library up - into the 3 Ares subcomponents: * the runtime library (phobos.lib) ** the DMD compiler runtime (dmdrt.lib) ** the DMD garbage collector (dmdgc.lib) ** the standard library (ares.lib)

I don't think they should be merged, as they all serve the same purpose. GPhobos is a clone of Phobos but with GDC support added, while Ares is essentially Phobos refactored into three sub-libraries with "std" replaced by new code.
 I guess we have a few items to sort out then, like: linux/Unix/Posix,
 and what the module hierarchy should look like and other similar things.
 (but better support for posix and win32 headers would be a good change)
 
 Or did you just mean it as in "it's OK that theirs is higher quality" ?

I think this is what Walter meant. And frankly, I think Ares/Mango/etc still have a ways to go yet they are a feature complete replacement for Phobos. For now, I think the status quo makes more sense. Sean
May 03 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Brad Roberts <braddr puremagic.com> writes:
On Tue, 2 May 2006, Kyle Furlong wrote:

 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of www.digitalmars.com/d/ and
 www.dsource.org has worked well for us from the standpoint of functionality.
 However, I think to further the goals of a polished presence, we need a
 presence more along the lines of www.php.net.
 
 Aside: I understand that Walter would like as much traffic to drive his click
 ads, but we could work something out, if it is a big issue. Also, this site
 could also be owned by DigitalMars as well.
 
 I'm interested to hear dissenting opinions as well as Walter's plans for
 DigitalMars' involvement in the pursuit of D's success in the wider world of
 computing.

The recent look/feel updates to wiki4d are good, in general change spurrs activity. :) As a step to facilitate even more activity, I just spent an hour or so going through a good portion of the contents of this wiki and created a page to list stale content: http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?StalePages In the process, I found this page, which is also a good place to concentrate some energy: http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?HelpDProgress Additionally, I added a reference to the StalePages page on this HelpDProgress page. I'll be adding to the list of staleness as well as addressing some of the pages that I feel suited to tackle, but a group effort is called for. Later, Brad
May 02 2006
parent reply Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeirosATgmail SPAM.com> writes:
Brad Roberts wrote:
 
 The recent look/feel updates to wiki4d are good, in general change spurrs 
 activity. :)
 
 As a step to facilitate even more activity, I just spent an hour or so 
 going through a good portion of the contents of this wiki and created a 
 page to list stale content:
 
      http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?StalePages
 
 In the process, I found this page, which is also a good place to 
 concentrate some energy:
 
      http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?HelpDProgress
 
 Additionally, I added a reference to the StalePages page on this 
 HelpDProgress page.
 
 I'll be adding to the list of staleness as well as addressing some of the 
 pages that I feel suited to tackle, but a group effort is called for.
 
 Later,
 Brad

Good idea. "Less is More" is especially true here, as removing stale information adds value to the wiki. In fact, it would be interesting to call for a collaborative work to clean some (or many) of the wiki parts. A more radical approach, but one which I would support, would be to Garbage Collect the whole thing. (meaning to blank all entries, and then re-enter (or re-edit) those who are still found to be significant). Perhaps a bit too radical? In any case, I would like to help clean up some of the parts related to language peeves and design issues. The [DONE] entries should be removed (except perhaps any very recent ones). Also, the introduction of the Bugzilla makes it redundant for the wiki to report on issues that are merely bugs. Thinking even further, the wiki could be used as a repository for summaries of the current "discussion state" of design features/peeves/issues. A standardized method and/or page for doing so would even be better. For instance a wiki page lists the common existing design issues, and for each one of those, another wiki entry exists listing a summary/abstract, background(optional), issue description, points and threads argued, community feedback (both negative and positive). Even if Walter doesn't pay attention to it (which is expected) it helps a bit to the community to know what is the current status, and the opinion of the rest of the community members. I know thar there very standardized and very formalized processes for languages changes in some other languages, and someone with knowledge of these (I haven't) could contribute some good well-based ideas. We don't need nor should have anything that complicated though, just something simple, which is useful enough already. Opinions, comments, sugestions on what I said, please. -- Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
May 03 2006
next sibling parent reply Frank Benoit <keinfarbton nospam.xyz> writes:
I posted this a bit earlier:

Another existing wiki is here

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:D

This one is called "book", but it is also a wiki, with a little bit
structure.

There are no limitations, it is not hosted and dependent on a single
person, mediawiki is widely accepted, ...
May 03 2006
parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeirosATgmail SPAM.com> writes:
Frank Benoit wrote:
 I posted this a bit earlier:
 
 Another existing wiki is here
 
 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:D
 
 This one is called "book", but it is also a wiki, with a little bit
 structure.
 
 There are no limitations, it is not hosted and dependent on a single
 person, mediawiki is widely accepted, ...
 

The D Wikibook is not appropriate for the kind of info I mentioned. -- Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
May 04 2006
prev sibling parent jcc7 <jcc7_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <e3ae4v$2o1t$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Bruno Medeiros says...
Brad Roberts wrote:
 
 The recent look/feel updates to wiki4d are good, in general change spurrs 
 activity. :)
 
 As a step to facilitate even more activity, I just spent an hour or so 
 going through a good portion of the contents of this wiki and created a 
 page to list stale content:
 
      http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?StalePages
 
 In the process, I found this page, which is also a good place to 
 concentrate some energy:
 
      http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?HelpDProgress
 
 Additionally, I added a reference to the StalePages page on this 
 HelpDProgress page.
 
 I'll be adding to the list of staleness as well as addressing some of the 
 pages that I feel suited to tackle, but a group effort is called for.
 
 Later,
 Brad

Good idea. "Less is More" is especially true here, as removing stale information adds value to the wiki.

A good thing about how the wiki works is that after a page has been edited, the old content still exists in the "archive".
In fact, it would be interesting to call for a collaborative work to 
clean some (or many) of the wiki parts. A more radical approach, but one 
which I would support, would be to Garbage Collect the whole thing. 
(meaning to blank all entries, and then re-enter (or re-edit) those who 
are still found to be significant). Perhaps a bit too radical?

I think that's too radical. It'd be better to start a new wiki (using MediaWiki of course since everyone seems to be in love with it). Maybe the "book" that Frank Benoit mentioned could be used (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:D). Since the Wiki4D content has a nice license, you could copy a page at a time to the new site. Once you put it on the new site, you could blank out the Wiki4D page with a link to the new page (so we remember where it went and people know where to update the content). But I'm happy at Wiki4D, so don't expect me to help out with this project. I wouldn't stand in the way of a person or group systematically moving from Wiki4D to a new wiki (it's not like I have any authority in the matter anyway), but I don't think that's the best use of time. I think our time is better spent by improving up pages incrementally at Wiki4D.
In any case, I would like to help clean up some of the parts related to 
language peeves and design issues.

Great!
The [DONE] entries should be removed (except perhaps any very recent ones).

Sounds good. The content remains in the "archive", so we wouldn't really be loosing anything.
Also, the introduction of the Bugzilla makes it redundant for the wiki 
to report on issues that are merely bugs.

Right. But people can still highlight there personal pet peeves in their namesake wiki entries if they want to.
Thinking even further, the wiki could be used as a repository for 
summaries of the current "discussion state" of design 
features/peeves/issues. A standardized method and/or page for doing so 
would even be better. For instance a wiki page lists the common existing 
design issues, and for each one of those, another wiki entry exists 
listing a summary/abstract, background(optional), issue description, 
points and threads argued, community feedback (both negative and 
positive). Even if Walter doesn't pay attention to it (which is 
expected) it helps a bit to the community to know what is the current 
status, and the opinion of the rest of the community members.

There's already some material like this in the wiki, but it's not really "standardized". And there could be a lot more of it.
I know thar there very standardized and very formalized processes for 
languages changes in some other languages, and someone with knowledge of 
these (I haven't) could contribute some good well-based ideas. We don't 
need nor should have anything that complicated though, just something 
simple, which is useful enough already.

Opinions, comments, sugestions on what I said, please.

You have some good ideas. jcc7
May 03 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
Kyle Furlong wrote:

 Aside: It must be a team. DWT is stagnant because Shawn doesnt have 
 time, and no one else understands the code well enough to continue.

GDC suffers from a similar fate, since David Friedman has been busy. And I won't even think about what would happen to D, without Walter... --anders
May 03 2006
parent reply Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeirosATgmail SPAM.com> writes:
Anders F Bj÷rklund wrote:
 And I won't even think about what would happen to D, without Walter...
 
 --anders

*shudders at the very thought of that* ... Walter, please drive safely and be healthy!! :P -- Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
May 03 2006
parent Dave <Dave_member pathlink.com> writes:
Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 Anders F Bj÷rklund wrote:
 And I won't even think about what would happen to D, without Walter...

 --anders

*shudders at the very thought of that* ... Walter, please drive safely and be healthy!! :P

Oh, that's nice <g> Walter, even if you decide to quit D, stay healthy and drive safely :)
May 03 2006
prev sibling next sibling parent DBloke <DBloke_member pathlink.com> writes:
Kyle Furlong wrote:
 I'm becoming more and more convinced that D needs a polished presence. How did
Java succeed? Marketing. Plain and simple, the first revisions sucked, but got
evangelized extremely effectively. How much better, since we have a quality
compiler, to market it.

 While I appreciate this feeling, this mode of operation will only gain us a
certain base of users, i.e. hobbyists and one man operations who can afford to
invest in a new language on just its merits. Everyone else (read, the majority
of the IT world) cannot form decisions only on the merits of a compiler.
Organizations need reassurances of a polished presence. This means
documentation, support, packaging, and marketing.

What D *really* needs is unification among the Community, D is already very powerful but in this day and age it is just arcane not to have a decent *RAD GUI IDE* to compliment the language, as well as a useful framework library, look at Net and Java, there is nothing fundamentally new or great that stands out in these languages, they are themselves a branch off of C, but they do have excellent libraries and a plethora of RAD GUI IDE's to make them more attractive to developers. When I was at college we were only allowed to use a text editor, make files and command line to program and were considered whingers if we said otherwise, today a good RAD GUI IDE is considered the norm in places of education, and definitely in the work place, no company is going to seriously consider D while it lacks a decent GUI library and a half decent IDE, Poseidon looks promising but is using what appears to be a now defunct DWT for its GUI framework.
 To this end, I propose the formation of an organization/committee, headed by
Walter, to guide the process of creating this polished presence.

Let Walter concentrate on what he does best, the more time Walter is detracted from D = Less progress in making D even better.
 Some things which this committee should consider are:

 1. Unified std library which is 100% covered and stable.

 2. Formation of a GUI /team/ to pick and/or develop further a cross platform
solution.

 Aside: It must be a team. DWT is stagnant because Shawn doesnt have time, and
no one else understands the code well enough to continue.

make for many ideas which makes for better programs, take the best of everything and create perfection.
 3. Choice of a new mascot/revamp of D-man. Also consider a new name.

I am all for contributing in a team effort, but feel my efforts would be ineffective channelling my energies into half finished one man efforts, and please do not take that comment personally, but to create something of the magnitude that is required to really lift D head and shoulders above the rest requires more than one or two people, it needs the whole community! Just my two pennies worth DBloke Follow the path paved with treasure, For a treacherous journey with little pleasure, Follow the path that seems much longer, For a shorter journey and a soul much stronger.
May 03 2006
prev sibling parent reply Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeirosATgmail SPAM.com> writes:
First of all, don't call it "hobbyists" :P  We are all "early adopters", 
and for most of us D is more than hobby (even if the allocated time is 
similar). Hobbyism and hobby programs for me is the trivial stuff I 
write in the Bash shell scripting language (which sucks BTW).


Kyle Furlong wrote:
 I'm becoming more and more convinced that D needs a polished presence. 
 How did Java succeed? Marketing. Plain and simple, the first revisions 
 sucked, but got evangelized extremely effectively. How much better, 
 since we have a quality compiler, to market it.
 

Matureness must come before marketing. Still, early "evangelism", as Walter put it, (which I consider different from marketing) is important and does come before matureness, since attracting a good number of (and an influential set of) early adopters is crucial to achieve matureness and "goodness".
 
 1. Unified std library which is 100% covered and stable.
 
 Aside: I am strongly biased to creating this library out of Ares + 
 Mango. No offense Walter, but Sean and Kris' code is higher quality at 
 this point.
 

True, and here is something were a lot of the work could be done independent of Walter (unlike for instance helping with the compiler, which requires significant interaction)
 2. Formation of a GUI /team/ to pick and/or develop further a cross 
 platform solution.
 
 Aside: It must be a team. DWT is stagnant because Shawn doesnt have 
 time, and no one else understands the code well enough to continue.
 

Huh? "Formation of a GUI team"? That doesn't make sense. Formation by whom and of whom? You speak as if Walter had control over this issues. Unlike the other points, he hasn't. No one here has authority over the work of the rest of the community, since no one is paying anyone *else* for that work). The only thing Walter can do is "bless" a project he deems more acceptable, which doesn't have much practical effect. GUI community development strategies must be considered on the face that the GUI community is a collaborative structure, and not a centralized-authoritative structure No one can exert control of the GUI (or any other for that matter) development, but the community *can come* to certain levels of agreement.
 3. Choice of a new mascot/revamp of D-man. Also consider a new name.
 
 Aside: I love the name D. But, the benefits of a name bigger than 2 
 letters are self evident, it should be considered. Also, D-man has 
 served us well. My initial reaction however, when I was first introduced 
 to him, was, "Wow, what a trashy mascot, how uncreative." Now that I'm 
 used to him, hes alright, but I seriously think we need to reconsider.
 

A logo is an important marketing and even recognition item, agreed. I just bring a small issue: does the logo necessarily has to an animal/mascot? I'm thinking it doesn't, any type of logo would do. -- Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
May 03 2006
next sibling parent reply Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 2. Formation of a GUI /team/ to pick and/or develop further a cross 
 platform solution.
 Aside: It must be a team. DWT is stagnant because Shawn doesnt have 
 time, and no one else understands the code well enough to continue.


Shawn has done so much excellent work, can't someone pick up where he's left off?
 A logo is an important marketing and even recognition item, agreed. I 
 just bring a small issue: does the logo necessarily has to an 
 animal/mascot? I'm thinking it doesn't, any type of logo would do.

The mascot is just for fun. A logo could be anything.
May 03 2006
next sibling parent reply nick <nick.atamas gmail.com> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:
 Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 A logo is an important marketing and even recognition item, agreed. I
 just bring a small issue: does the logo necessarily has to an
 animal/mascot? I'm thinking it doesn't, any type of logo would do.

The mascot is just for fun. A logo could be anything.

In my opinion, the capital D is a strong symbol that is easily recognizable. It doesn't have to be in a specific font or color. Just the character is all that's needed.
May 05 2006
parent =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
nick wrote:

 In my opinion, the capital D is a strong symbol that is easily
 recognizable. It doesn't have to be in a specific font or color. Just
 the character is all that's needed.

As far as I know, it absolutely *has* to be red... Think it is in tribute to the Red Planet (Mars) ? --anders
May 05 2006
prev sibling parent reply Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
Walter Bright wrote:
 Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 
 A logo is an important marketing and even recognition item, agreed. I 
 just bring a small issue: does the logo necessarily has to an 
 animal/mascot? I'm thinking it doesn't, any type of logo would do.

The mascot is just for fun. A logo could be anything.

If I ever get the D book ready to publish, I'd definitely like the D-man to appear in it. With permission, of course.
May 05 2006
parent Walter Bright <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
Georg Wrede wrote:
 Walter Bright wrote:
 Bruno Medeiros wrote:

 A logo is an important marketing and even recognition item, agreed. I 
 just bring a small issue: does the logo necessarily has to an 
 animal/mascot? I'm thinking it doesn't, any type of logo would do.

The mascot is just for fun. A logo could be anything.

If I ever get the D book ready to publish, I'd definitely like the D-man to appear in it. With permission, of course.

No prob!
May 05 2006
prev sibling parent reply Kyle Furlong <kylefurlong gmail.com> writes:
Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 First of all, don't call it "hobbyists" :P  We are all "early adopters", 
 and for most of us D is more than hobby (even if the allocated time is 
 similar). Hobbyism and hobby programs for me is the trivial stuff I 
 write in the Bash shell scripting language (which sucks BTW).
 
 
 Kyle Furlong wrote:
 I'm becoming more and more convinced that D needs a polished presence. 
 How did Java succeed? Marketing. Plain and simple, the first revisions 
 sucked, but got evangelized extremely effectively. How much better, 
 since we have a quality compiler, to market it.

Matureness must come before marketing. Still, early "evangelism", as Walter put it, (which I consider different from marketing) is important and does come before matureness, since attracting a good number of (and an influential set of) early adopters is crucial to achieve matureness and "goodness".

How would you quantify this? Then once you do, where would you place DMD?
 1. Unified std library which is 100% covered and stable.

 Aside: I am strongly biased to creating this library out of Ares + 
 Mango. No offense Walter, but Sean and Kris' code is higher quality at 
 this point.

True, and here is something were a lot of the work could be done independent of Walter (unlike for instance helping with the compiler, which requires significant interaction)
 2. Formation of a GUI /team/ to pick and/or develop further a cross 
 platform solution.

 Aside: It must be a team. DWT is stagnant because Shawn doesnt have 
 time, and no one else understands the code well enough to continue.

Huh? "Formation of a GUI team"? That doesn't make sense. Formation by whom and of whom? You speak as if Walter had control over this issues. Unlike the other points, he hasn't. No one here has authority over the work of the rest of the community, since no one is paying anyone *else* for that work). The only thing Walter can do is "bless" a project he deems more acceptable, which doesn't have much practical effect. GUI community development strategies must be considered on the face that the GUI community is a collaborative structure, and not a centralized-authoritative structure No one can exert control of the GUI (or any other for that matter) development, but the community *can come* to certain levels of agreement.

While its true that no one person has a *right* to assert authority over anyone else in this context, it may be benificial to self organize into a more centralized team in order to produce higher quality code in a much shorter time span. Obviously no one can compel anyone else to do anything.
 3. Choice of a new mascot/revamp of D-man. Also consider a new name.

 Aside: I love the name D. But, the benefits of a name bigger than 2 
 letters are self evident, it should be considered. Also, D-man has 
 served us well. My initial reaction however, when I was first 
 introduced to him, was, "Wow, what a trashy mascot, how uncreative." 
 Now that I'm used to him, hes alright, but I seriously think we need 
 to reconsider.

A logo is an important marketing and even recognition item, agreed. I just bring a small issue: does the logo necessarily has to an animal/mascot? I'm thinking it doesn't, any type of logo would do.

My idea for the mascot is along the lines of something that will stick in people's heads. So, if a logo can do this, fine. But, in my experience, (which admittedly, is quite small) a mascot has more power to hold itself in a persons mind than a logo. If D-man does this, fine. -- Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB "D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright
May 03 2006
next sibling parent Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeirosATgmail SPAM.com> writes:
Kyle Furlong wrote:
 Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 First of all, don't call it "hobbyists" :P  We are all "early 
 adopters", and for most of us D is more than hobby (even if the 
 allocated time is similar). Hobbyism and hobby programs for me is the 
 trivial stuff I write in the Bash shell scripting language (which 
 sucks BTW).


 Kyle Furlong wrote:
 I'm becoming more and more convinced that D needs a polished 
 presence. How did Java succeed? Marketing. Plain and simple, the 
 first revisions sucked, but got evangelized extremely effectively. 
 How much better, since we have a quality compiler, to market it.

Matureness must come before marketing. Still, early "evangelism", as Walter put it, (which I consider different from marketing) is important and does come before matureness, since attracting a good number of (and an influential set of) early adopters is crucial to achieve matureness and "goodness".

How would you quantify this? Then once you do, where would you place DMD?

I'm not sure what you mean or what you're asking bout. -- Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
May 04 2006
prev sibling parent Georg Wrede <georg.wrede nospam.org> writes:
Kyle Furlong wrote:
 Bruno Medeiros wrote:
 No one can exert control of the GUI (or any other for that matter) 
 development, but the community *can come* to certain levels of agreement.

While its true that no one person has a *right* to assert authority over anyone else in this context, it may be benificial to self organize into a more centralized team in order to produce higher quality code in a much shorter time span.

There are two main points to organizing a group effort. - Division of labour and responsibilities - To assign tasks The former makes it possible for individuals (or subgroups) to concentrate on "their own turf only", enabling more profound thinking in that area. The latter is needed so that the mundane or uninteresting stuff gets done too. And this is really important for a polished result. Of course, the _decisions_ can be reached as democratically as we please, but the organisation's role is to see to it that those decisions are followed through.
 A logo is an important marketing and even recognition item, agreed. I 
 just bring a small issue: does the logo necessarily has to an 
 animal/mascot? I'm thinking it doesn't, any type of logo would do.

My idea for the mascot is along the lines of something that will stick in people's heads. So, if a logo can do this, fine. But, in my experience, (which admittedly, is quite small) a mascot has more power to hold itself in a persons mind than a logo.

A mascot and a logo don't compete with each other. I think we need both.
 If D-man does this, fine.

The D-man is already an established mascot. There would have to exist a good reason to change this.
May 05 2006