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digitalmars.D - Debugging Symbol Information

reply imr1984 <imr1984_member pathlink.com> writes:
Hi

Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider not being
able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.

D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing more. But
frankly, who cares? As long as you cant debug D programs properly, D is pretty
much (dare I say it) useless.

When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.
May 29 2005
next sibling parent reply Derek Parnell <derek psych.ward> writes:
On Sun, 29 May 2005 10:34:08 +0000 (UTC), imr1984 wrote:

 Hi
 
 Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider not being
 able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.
 
 D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing more. But
 frankly, who cares? As long as you cant debug D programs properly, D is pretty
 much (dare I say it) useless.
 
 When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.

What am I doing wrong? I have never needed an interactive debugger with D. -- Derek Parnell Melbourne, Australia 29/05/2005 9:16:55 PM
May 29 2005
next sibling parent Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar igesund.net> writes:
Derek Parnell wrote:

 On Sun, 29 May 2005 10:34:08 +0000 (UTC), imr1984 wrote:
 
 Hi
 
 Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider not
 being able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.
 
 D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing
 more. But frankly, who cares? As long as you cant debug D programs
 properly, D is pretty much (dare I say it) useless.
 
 When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.

What am I doing wrong? I have never needed an interactive debugger with D.

You're just to damn structured when writing code ;) Lars Ivar Igesund
May 29 2005
prev sibling parent bobef <bobef_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <15l7g6p9fwn6f.3wosvc27mgzn.dlg 40tude.net>, Derek Parnell says...
On Sun, 29 May 2005 10:34:08 +0000 (UTC), imr1984 wrote:

 Hi
 
 Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider not being
 able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.
 
 D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing more. But
 frankly, who cares?


I care. As long as you cant debug D programs properly, D is pretty
 much (dare I say it) useless.


You are wrong. It is totaly useful. I am doing this app (http://www.lessequal.com/akide) and last few days I'm dealin with stuff like shell extensions (this COM is nonsense) and htmlhelp which I am doing in C++. I forgot what pain was the work with char*-s and realloc... D strings/arrays is breeze. And not only the arrays... D is The language for me and I belive many other people from this community...
 
 When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.

What am I doing wrong? I have never needed an interactive debugger with D.

Well I needed one. It could save me a lot of time and headaches... But I'm doing fine without it...
May 29 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2 yahoo.com> writes:
"imr1984" <imr1984_member pathlink.com> wrote in message 
news:d7c5r0$2b7f$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider not 
 being
 able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.

 D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing 
 more. But
 frankly, who cares? As long as you cant debug D programs properly, D is 
 pretty
 much (dare I say it) useless.

 When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.

I would love to have proper debugging info, but unless we get a proper IDE/debugger, it won't be of much use. I use VC++ to step through my D progs and look at some variables (basic types work fine). This of course can't be extended to look at some parts of D as it's hard-coded to see C++ stuff (like classes). I suppose I could use yet _another_ command-line utility (sometimes using D feels like I've stepped back in time..) like gdb, but I'm really not up to using another tool. In the meantime, I'm happy. It might take me a little longer to debug stuff, but for the most part, my code is perfect so I don't need it ;) jk. I've gotten pretty quick with printlining/logging, and very rarely do I need stepthru, and if I do, I can usually do it in VC++.
May 29 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply clayasaurus <clayasaurus gmail.com> writes:
imr1984 wrote:
 Hi
 
 Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider not being
 able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.
 
 D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing more. But
 frankly, who cares? As long as you cant debug D programs properly, D is pretty
 much (dare I say it) useless.
 
 When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.
 
 
 

I suspect it will be a priority once D 1.0 is out, because it might be hard to produce correct debug info when you add/remove features from the language. In the mean time, get friendly with unit tests, asserts, contracts, and writef ;)
May 29 2005
parent "Charlie" <charles jwavro.com> writes:
 I suspect it will be a priority once D 1.0 is out, because it might be
 hard to produce correct debug info when you add/remove features from the
 language. In the mean time, get friendly with unit tests, asserts,
 contracts, and writef ;)

Hmm good point , but D definetly needs 100% debug info. And since D is a new language , with features found nowhere else , a debug API would be super awesome also. "clayasaurus" <clayasaurus gmail.com> wrote in message news:d7cr8g$2rsq$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 imr1984 wrote:
 Hi

 Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider


 able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.

 D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing


 frankly, who cares? As long as you cant debug D programs properly, D is


 much (dare I say it) useless.

 When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.

I suspect it will be a priority once D 1.0 is out, because it might be hard to produce correct debug info when you add/remove features from the language. In the mean time, get friendly with unit tests, asserts, contracts, and writef ;)

May 29 2005
prev sibling parent reply "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:
 Is the debugging info produced by DMD every gonna improve? I consider not 
 being
 able to view globals, members or structs not good for debugging.

 D has all these lovely new features, and even now Walter is proposing 
 more. But
 frankly, who cares? As long as you cant debug D programs properly, D is 
 pretty
 much (dare I say it) useless.

 When is this gonna change? It should be a priority.

I am with you, correct debug info and IDE capable to show correctly will attract developers and decision makers many times more than e.g. java-to-D transformation tool. I think that creation of IDE with interactive debugging is a priority #1 for the community righ now. Andrew.
May 29 2005
parent reply bobef <bobef_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <d7d64h$522$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Andrew Fedoniouk says...
I am with you,

correct debug info and IDE capable to show correctly
will attract developers and decision makers many times
more than e.g. java-to-D transformation tool.

I think more important question is what we want to achieve by attracting developers and decision makers?
I think that creation of IDE with interactive debugging
is a priority #1 for the community righ now.

Do you really believe any community will ever be able for to make an IDE more attractive than microsoft's one. I think in next version it will warn you that it is best to disconnect your keyboard to save resources because their 'programming' will be drag-n-drop only where it is needed because in most cases you can just choose a template!
May 29 2005
parent reply "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:
"bobef" <bobef_member pathlink.com> wrote in message 
news:d7d749$5u9$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 In article <d7d64h$522$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Andrew Fedoniouk says...
I am with you,

correct debug info and IDE capable to show correctly
will attract developers and decision makers many times
more than e.g. java-to-D transformation tool.

I think more important question is what we want to achieve by attracting developers and decision makers?

:) Ask Walter and Kris for what for, they think, Java-to-D is needed.
I think that creation of IDE with interactive debugging
is a priority #1 for the community righ now.

Do you really believe any community will ever be able for to make an IDE more attractive than microsoft's one. I think in next version it will warn you that it is best to disconnect your keyboard to save resources because their 'programming' will be drag-n-drop only where it is needed because in most cases you can just choose a template!

public community can do good IDE - Eclipse for example. But only in case of proper organization: it has to be an authority - mangement - dedicated people getting money for the job. The best IDEs though made by commercial companies: e.g. the best Java IDE - IntelliJ is a product of JetBrains (used to be Russian software company - now international) and this IDE by its feature set and ergonomics beat MS VS in many places. http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/features/ Andrew.
May 29 2005
parent reply bobef <bobef_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <d7d8ar$73m$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Andrew Fedoniouk says...
public community can do good IDE - Eclipse for example.
But only in case of proper organization: it has to be an authority -
mangement - dedicated people getting money for the job.

People get paid when they expect to get money... D community is kind-a-open source :)
The best IDEs though made by commercial companies: e.g.
the best Java IDE - IntelliJ is a product of JetBrains
(used to be Russian software company - now international)
and this IDE by its feature set and ergonomics beat
MS VS in many places. http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/features/

Don't get me wrong. I don't like ms's ide (after version 6). But people like drag-n-drop and they will always prefer it ;] (this is about attracting developers). Also I tried intellij. It is great but is more than slow (like any other java app) and the status bar says it eats 50megs of memory just by starting it ;] offtopic: my observations shows that russians are the best developers on earth and they are not best only at that it seems :) anyway this is a offtopic :)
May 29 2005
parent reply "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:
"bobef" <bobef_member pathlink.com> wrote in message 
news:d7d8up$7o0$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 In article <d7d8ar$73m$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Andrew Fedoniouk says...
public community can do good IDE - Eclipse for example.
But only in case of proper organization: it has to be an authority -
mangement - dedicated people getting money for the job.

People get paid when they expect to get money... D community is kind-a-open source :)
The best IDEs though made by commercial companies: e.g.
the best Java IDE - IntelliJ is a product of JetBrains
(used to be Russian software company - now international)
and this IDE by its feature set and ergonomics beat
MS VS in many places. http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/features/

Don't get me wrong. I don't like ms's ide (after version 6). But people like drag-n-drop and they will always prefer it ;] (this is about attracting developers). Also I tried intellij. It is great but is more than slow (like any other java app) and the status bar says it eats 50megs of memory just by starting it ;]

I agree with you. it is slow because it is not written in D :) And MS IDEs after VS 6 developed by the team was making MS VisualJ IDE initially, afaik. Java ruins everything :) People in Java world get used to slowness and enormous memory consumptions.
 offtopic: my observations shows that russians are the best developers on 
 earth
 and they are not best only at that it seems :) anyway this is a offtopic 
 :)

:) Gotcha! More offtopic: There is no pure Computer Science speciality in Russian education system. Programming is always a part of something else (at least used to be so) - some other scientific or engeneering speciality. So there are no bakeries making Java programmers in half of the year. :) E.g. if you know principles of control systems of ballistic missiles then you can design GUI toolkits two per year, joke ;). Andrew.
May 29 2005
parent reply "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:
 offtopic: my observations shows that russians are the best developers on 
 earth
 and they are not best only at that it seems :) anyway this is a offtopic 
 :)


Some personal and self-critical remarks. If you see in US airport creature with wild eyes, beard and wearing leather jacket two times bigger in size than needed - know you have a honour to observe Russian Programicus alive. You may ask him to write you an application calculating exact position of electron at any given moment of time. Just give him 15 minutes and your notebook. Does not matter what is installed there. Language, OS, IDE are all irrelevant. Just 15 minutes and you will get working application. Don't give him one hour, 'cause in this case you will get a Universal Problem Solver Application. And *that* will be really non-deterministic thing - it will use neural nets algorithms and all possible bells and whistles. And without documentation. :) And following sacred knowledge will also help: 1.Russian programmers never read manuals and rarely use online help - they easily get a grasp of a new program, simply because they have already tried every single program in this field before. 2.Russian programmers never pay for the software. They either crack it or buy those wonderful CDs with tons of cracked software that are sold for $5 bucks in every major city in Russia. 3.Russian programmers are always on the cutting edge of software development - they use the latest versions of the best tools available - it's easy, since there is no need to pay. 4.Russians programmers are very experienced in hardware. They will take your computer apart and build it back in a matter of minutes. They remember the jumpers settings for most boards, hard drives and other devices. They never forget what interrupts and base memory addresses are currently used up in their computers. 5.Russians programmers keep upgrading their computers until there are no more available interrupts, no room for additional memory and no free bay slots. If they can't upgrade it any more they buy a new one and tie both old and new computer into a LAN. 6.Russians programmers program on all levels, beginning with the processor codes, table of which they hold for the reference on their desk. They usually remember by heart the list of functions of Int21H. 7.Russian programmers remember by heart both English and Russian keyboard layouts. You can ask them in the middle of the night what key is between A and L and you'll hear surprised: "What do you mean - they are 7 keys apart?". 8.Russian programmers hate Microsoft and Microsoft tools, but keep using them. 9.Russian programmers prefer Borland tools and install Microsoft compilers only for their nice Help files on Windows API. 10.Russian programmers feel themselves very comfortable on the Internet. They are always online - just in case they need something urgently. 11.Russian programmers only work when they are in the right mood. Programming is a creative process and it cannot be pushed. 12.Russian programmers are always in the mood for programming. 13.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that hate Windows and program on Unix and the ones that hate Windows and still program on Windows. Macintosh programmers aren't real programmers - they are more often referred to as "users". 14.Russian programmers hate to code somebody else's ideas. Each program is written personally and from scratch. 15.Russian programmers always have a copy of Doom, Duke Nukem or Quake on their hard drives. They play nights over the network in a Deathmatch mode. 16.Russian programmers never use joystick. Keyboard is a dangerous weapon in their fast hands. 17.Russian programmers never give up. They will hunt down bugs in their programs forgetting to eat and sleep. 18.Russian programmers' wives are never happy. They get no attention whatsoever as long as the computer is in the same house. 19.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that bring profit by actually doing something, and the ones that bring better profit by not interfering with anything. 20.Russian programmers are always underpaid. There is no money in the world that amounts to what they are really worth. 21.Big bosses don't like Russian programmers. Who likes a smart ass that knows everything? 22.Big bosses will never fire a Russian programmer. They know that even working 10 hours a week and being half-drunk Russian programmer will accomplish more than a Ph.D. both in the short and in the long run. 23.Russian programmers never prototype the code. They write on inspiration, sometimes without sleep, driven by the urge to see the new program run as soon as possible. When the program finally runs without glitches they drop on the floor and sleep for 20-30 hours happily smiling in their dreams. 24.Russian programmers never approach programming methodically. Every program is a piece of art and is usually written in a highly inconvenient time when deadlines for other projects are around the corner.
May 29 2005
next sibling parent reply "Charlie" <charles jwavro.com> writes:
Interesting , I like the picture you've painted :).  I don't want to imply
that Russians are the 'only' great developers, but I'd have to agree that
all of them I've met are extremely good.  Maybe that's why they got to space
first :P.

Is Fedoniouk a Russian name ?

Charlie


"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
news:d7dgor$e50$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 offtopic: my observations shows that russians are the best developers



 earth
 and they are not best only at that it seems :) anyway this is a



 :)


Some personal and self-critical remarks. If you see in US airport creature with wild eyes, beard and wearing leather jacket two times bigger in size than needed - know you have a honour to observe Russian Programicus alive. You may ask him to write you an application calculating exact position of electron at any given moment of time. Just give him 15 minutes and your notebook. Does not matter what is installed there. Language, OS, IDE are all irrelevant. Just 15 minutes and you will get working application. Don't give him one hour, 'cause in this case you will get a Universal Problem Solver Application. And *that* will be really non-deterministic thing - it will use neural nets algorithms and all possible bells and whistles. And without documentation. :) And following sacred knowledge will also help: 1.Russian programmers never read manuals and rarely use online help - they easily get a grasp of a new program, simply because they have already

 every single program in this field before.

 2.Russian programmers never pay for the software. They either crack it or
 buy those wonderful CDs with tons of cracked software that are sold for $5
 bucks in every major city in Russia.

 3.Russian programmers are always on the cutting edge of software
 development - they use the latest versions of the best tools available -
 it's easy, since there is no need to pay.

 4.Russians programmers are very experienced in hardware. They will take

 computer apart and build it back in a matter of minutes. They remember the
 jumpers settings for most boards, hard drives and other devices. They

 forget what interrupts and base memory addresses are currently used up in
 their computers.

 5.Russians programmers keep upgrading their computers until there are no
 more available interrupts, no room for additional memory and no free bay
 slots. If they can't upgrade it any more they buy a new one and tie both

 and new computer into a LAN.

 6.Russians programmers program on all levels, beginning with the processor
 codes, table of which they hold for the reference on their desk. They
 usually remember by heart the list of functions of Int21H.

 7.Russian programmers remember by heart both English and Russian keyboard
 layouts. You can ask them in the middle of the night what key is between A
 and L and you'll hear surprised: "What do you mean - they are 7 keys
 apart?".

 8.Russian programmers hate Microsoft and Microsoft tools, but keep using
 them.

 9.Russian programmers prefer Borland tools and install Microsoft compilers
 only for their nice Help files on Windows API.

 10.Russian programmers feel themselves very comfortable on the Internet.
 They are always online - just in case they need something urgently.

 11.Russian programmers only work when they are in the right mood.
 Programming is a creative process and it cannot be pushed.

 12.Russian programmers are always in the mood for programming.

 13.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that hate Windows
 and program on Unix and the ones that hate Windows and still program on
 Windows. Macintosh programmers aren't real programmers - they are more

 referred to as "users".

 14.Russian programmers hate to code somebody else's ideas. Each program is
 written personally and from scratch.

 15.Russian programmers always have a copy of Doom, Duke Nukem or Quake on
 their hard drives. They play nights over the network in a Deathmatch mode.

 16.Russian programmers never use joystick. Keyboard is a dangerous weapon

 their fast hands.

 17.Russian programmers never give up. They will hunt down bugs in their
 programs forgetting to eat and sleep.

 18.Russian programmers' wives are never happy. They get no attention
 whatsoever as long as the computer is in the same house.

 19.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that bring profit
 by actually doing something, and the ones that bring better profit by not
 interfering with anything.

 20.Russian programmers are always underpaid. There is no money in the

 that amounts to what they are really worth.

 21.Big bosses don't like Russian programmers. Who likes a smart ass that
 knows everything?

 22.Big bosses will never fire a Russian programmer. They know that even
 working 10 hours a week and being half-drunk Russian programmer will
 accomplish more than a Ph.D. both in the short and in the long run.

 23.Russian programmers never prototype the code. They write on

 sometimes without sleep, driven by the urge to see the new program run as
 soon as possible. When the program finally runs without glitches they drop
 on the floor and sleep for 20-30 hours happily smiling in their dreams.

 24.Russian programmers never approach programming methodically. Every
 program is a piece of art and is usually written in a highly inconvenient
 time when deadlines for other projects are around the corner.

May 30 2005
parent reply "Kris" <fu bar.com> writes:
This topic is hilarious! :-)

I've fired three of Andrew's "programicus creatures". The root reasons were:
outright laziness (do nothing constructive for months upon end), thorough
incompentence (perhaps the most dysfunctional code I've had the displeasure
to witness), and repeated drunkenness at the office.

Funny! <g>



"Charlie" <charles jwavro.com> wrote in message
news:d7fnq6$2nuj$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Interesting , I like the picture you've painted :).  I don't want to imply
 that Russians are the 'only' great developers, but I'd have to agree that
 all of them I've met are extremely good.  Maybe that's why they got to

 first :P.

 Is Fedoniouk a Russian name ?

 Charlie


 "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
 news:d7dgor$e50$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 offtopic: my observations shows that russians are the best developers



 earth
 and they are not best only at that it seems :) anyway this is a



 :)


Some personal and self-critical remarks. If you see in US airport creature with wild eyes, beard and wearing leather jacket two times bigger in size than needed - know you have a honour to observe Russian Programicus alive. You may ask him to write you an application calculating exact position of electron at any given moment of time. Just give him 15 minutes and your notebook. Does not matter what is installed there. Language, OS, IDE are all irrelevant. Just 15 minutes and you will get working application. Don't give him one hour, 'cause in this case you will get a Universal Problem Solver Application. And *that* will be really non-deterministic thing - it will use neural nets algorithms and all possible bells and whistles. And without documentation. :) And following sacred knowledge will also help: 1.Russian programmers never read manuals and rarely use online help -


 easily get a grasp of a new program, simply because they have already

 every single program in this field before.

 2.Russian programmers never pay for the software. They either crack it


 buy those wonderful CDs with tons of cracked software that are sold for


 bucks in every major city in Russia.

 3.Russian programmers are always on the cutting edge of software
 development - they use the latest versions of the best tools available -
 it's easy, since there is no need to pay.

 4.Russians programmers are very experienced in hardware. They will take

 computer apart and build it back in a matter of minutes. They remember


 jumpers settings for most boards, hard drives and other devices. They

 forget what interrupts and base memory addresses are currently used up


 their computers.

 5.Russians programmers keep upgrading their computers until there are no
 more available interrupts, no room for additional memory and no free bay
 slots. If they can't upgrade it any more they buy a new one and tie both

 and new computer into a LAN.

 6.Russians programmers program on all levels, beginning with the


 codes, table of which they hold for the reference on their desk. They
 usually remember by heart the list of functions of Int21H.

 7.Russian programmers remember by heart both English and Russian


 layouts. You can ask them in the middle of the night what key is between


 and L and you'll hear surprised: "What do you mean - they are 7 keys
 apart?".

 8.Russian programmers hate Microsoft and Microsoft tools, but keep using
 them.

 9.Russian programmers prefer Borland tools and install Microsoft


 only for their nice Help files on Windows API.

 10.Russian programmers feel themselves very comfortable on the Internet.
 They are always online - just in case they need something urgently.

 11.Russian programmers only work when they are in the right mood.
 Programming is a creative process and it cannot be pushed.

 12.Russian programmers are always in the mood for programming.

 13.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that hate


 and program on Unix and the ones that hate Windows and still program on
 Windows. Macintosh programmers aren't real programmers - they are more

 referred to as "users".

 14.Russian programmers hate to code somebody else's ideas. Each program


 written personally and from scratch.

 15.Russian programmers always have a copy of Doom, Duke Nukem or Quake


 their hard drives. They play nights over the network in a Deathmatch


 16.Russian programmers never use joystick. Keyboard is a dangerous


 in
 their fast hands.

 17.Russian programmers never give up. They will hunt down bugs in their
 programs forgetting to eat and sleep.

 18.Russian programmers' wives are never happy. They get no attention
 whatsoever as long as the computer is in the same house.

 19.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that bring


 by actually doing something, and the ones that bring better profit by


 interfering with anything.

 20.Russian programmers are always underpaid. There is no money in the

 that amounts to what they are really worth.

 21.Big bosses don't like Russian programmers. Who likes a smart ass that
 knows everything?

 22.Big bosses will never fire a Russian programmer. They know that even
 working 10 hours a week and being half-drunk Russian programmer will
 accomplish more than a Ph.D. both in the short and in the long run.

 23.Russian programmers never prototype the code. They write on

 sometimes without sleep, driven by the urge to see the new program run


 soon as possible. When the program finally runs without glitches they dr


 on the floor and sleep for 20-30 hours happily smiling in their dreams.

 24.Russian programmers never approach programming methodically. Every
 program is a piece of art and is usually written in a highly


 time when deadlines for other projects are around the corner.


May 30 2005
parent "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:
"Kris" <fu bar.com> wrote in message news:d7fqqd$2qjc$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 This topic is hilarious! :-)

 I've fired three of Andrew's "programicus creatures". The root reasons 
 were:
 outright laziness (do nothing constructive for months upon end), thorough
 incompentence (perhaps the most dysfunctional code I've had the 
 displeasure
 to witness), and repeated drunkenness at the office.

:))) It remebers me Russian joke : "What???! You don't like cats???!!! You just don't know of how to cook them properly!!!" Joke of course. "drunkenness" ... They should be fired immediately without any discussion.
 "Charlie" <charles jwavro.com> wrote in message
 news:d7fnq6$2nuj$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Interesting , I like the picture you've painted :).  I don't want to 
 imply
 that Russians are the 'only' great developers, but I'd have to agree that
 all of them I've met are extremely good.  Maybe that's why they got to

 first :P.

 Is Fedoniouk a Russian name ?

 Charlie


 "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
 news:d7dgor$e50$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 offtopic: my observations shows that russians are the best 
 developers



 earth
 and they are not best only at that it seems :) anyway this is a



 :)


Some personal and self-critical remarks. If you see in US airport creature with wild eyes, beard and wearing leather jacket two times bigger in size than needed - know you have a honour to observe Russian Programicus alive. You may ask him to write you an application calculating exact position of electron at any given moment of time. Just give him 15 minutes and your notebook. Does not matter what is installed there. Language, OS, IDE are all irrelevant. Just 15 minutes and you will get working application. Don't give him one hour, 'cause in this case you will get a Universal Problem Solver Application. And *that* will be really non-deterministic thing - it will use neural nets algorithms and all possible bells and whistles. And without documentation. :) And following sacred knowledge will also help: 1.Russian programmers never read manuals and rarely use online help -


 easily get a grasp of a new program, simply because they have already

 every single program in this field before.

 2.Russian programmers never pay for the software. They either crack it


 buy those wonderful CDs with tons of cracked software that are sold for


 bucks in every major city in Russia.

 3.Russian programmers are always on the cutting edge of software
 development - they use the latest versions of the best tools 
 available -
 it's easy, since there is no need to pay.

 4.Russians programmers are very experienced in hardware. They will take

 computer apart and build it back in a matter of minutes. They remember


 jumpers settings for most boards, hard drives and other devices. They

 forget what interrupts and base memory addresses are currently used up


 their computers.

 5.Russians programmers keep upgrading their computers until there are 
 no
 more available interrupts, no room for additional memory and no free 
 bay
 slots. If they can't upgrade it any more they buy a new one and tie 
 both

 and new computer into a LAN.

 6.Russians programmers program on all levels, beginning with the


 codes, table of which they hold for the reference on their desk. They
 usually remember by heart the list of functions of Int21H.

 7.Russian programmers remember by heart both English and Russian


 layouts. You can ask them in the middle of the night what key is 
 between


 and L and you'll hear surprised: "What do you mean - they are 7 keys
 apart?".

 8.Russian programmers hate Microsoft and Microsoft tools, but keep 
 using
 them.

 9.Russian programmers prefer Borland tools and install Microsoft


 only for their nice Help files on Windows API.

 10.Russian programmers feel themselves very comfortable on the 
 Internet.
 They are always online - just in case they need something urgently.

 11.Russian programmers only work when they are in the right mood.
 Programming is a creative process and it cannot be pushed.

 12.Russian programmers are always in the mood for programming.

 13.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that hate


 and program on Unix and the ones that hate Windows and still program on
 Windows. Macintosh programmers aren't real programmers - they are more

 referred to as "users".

 14.Russian programmers hate to code somebody else's ideas. Each program


 written personally and from scratch.

 15.Russian programmers always have a copy of Doom, Duke Nukem or Quake


 their hard drives. They play nights over the network in a Deathmatch


 16.Russian programmers never use joystick. Keyboard is a dangerous


 in
 their fast hands.

 17.Russian programmers never give up. They will hunt down bugs in their
 programs forgetting to eat and sleep.

 18.Russian programmers' wives are never happy. They get no attention
 whatsoever as long as the computer is in the same house.

 19.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that bring


 by actually doing something, and the ones that bring better profit by


 interfering with anything.

 20.Russian programmers are always underpaid. There is no money in the

 that amounts to what they are really worth.

 21.Big bosses don't like Russian programmers. Who likes a smart ass 
 that
 knows everything?

 22.Big bosses will never fire a Russian programmer. They know that even
 working 10 hours a week and being half-drunk Russian programmer will
 accomplish more than a Ph.D. both in the short and in the long run.

 23.Russian programmers never prototype the code. They write on

 sometimes without sleep, driven by the urge to see the new program run


 soon as possible. When the program finally runs without glitches they 
 dr


 on the floor and sleep for 20-30 hours happily smiling in their dreams.

 24.Russian programmers never approach programming methodically. Every
 program is a piece of art and is usually written in a highly


 time when deadlines for other projects are around the corner.



May 30 2005
prev sibling parent "Ilya Zaitseff" <sark7 mail333.com> writes:
sad but true :)

On Mon, 30 May 2005 09:46:45 +1100, Andrew Fedoniouk  
<news terrainformatica.com> wrote:

 offtopic: my observations shows that russians are the best developers  
 on
 earth
 and they are not best only at that it seems :) anyway this is a  
 offtopic
 :)


Some personal and self-critical remarks. If you see in US airport creature with wild eyes, beard and wearing leather jacket two times bigger in size than needed - know you have a honour to observe Russian Programicus alive. You may ask him to write you an application calculating exact position of electron at any given moment of time. Just give him 15 minutes and your notebook. Does not matter what is installed there. Language, OS, IDE are all irrelevant. Just 15 minutes and you will get working application. Don't give him one hour, 'cause in this case you will get a Universal Problem Solver Application. And *that* will be really non-deterministic thing - it will use neural nets algorithms and all possible bells and whistles. And without documentation. :) And following sacred knowledge will also help: 1.Russian programmers never read manuals and rarely use online help - they easily get a grasp of a new program, simply because they have already tried every single program in this field before. 2.Russian programmers never pay for the software. They either crack it or buy those wonderful CDs with tons of cracked software that are sold for $5 bucks in every major city in Russia. 3.Russian programmers are always on the cutting edge of software development - they use the latest versions of the best tools available - it's easy, since there is no need to pay. 4.Russians programmers are very experienced in hardware. They will take your computer apart and build it back in a matter of minutes. They remember the jumpers settings for most boards, hard drives and other devices. They never forget what interrupts and base memory addresses are currently used up in their computers. 5.Russians programmers keep upgrading their computers until there are no more available interrupts, no room for additional memory and no free bay slots. If they can't upgrade it any more they buy a new one and tie both old and new computer into a LAN. 6.Russians programmers program on all levels, beginning with the processor codes, table of which they hold for the reference on their desk. They usually remember by heart the list of functions of Int21H. 7.Russian programmers remember by heart both English and Russian keyboard layouts. You can ask them in the middle of the night what key is between A and L and you'll hear surprised: "What do you mean - they are 7 keys apart?". 8.Russian programmers hate Microsoft and Microsoft tools, but keep using them. 9.Russian programmers prefer Borland tools and install Microsoft compilers only for their nice Help files on Windows API. 10.Russian programmers feel themselves very comfortable on the Internet. They are always online - just in case they need something urgently. 11.Russian programmers only work when they are in the right mood. Programming is a creative process and it cannot be pushed. 12.Russian programmers are always in the mood for programming. 13.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that hate Windows and program on Unix and the ones that hate Windows and still program on Windows. Macintosh programmers aren't real programmers - they are more often referred to as "users". 14.Russian programmers hate to code somebody else's ideas. Each program is written personally and from scratch. 15.Russian programmers always have a copy of Doom, Duke Nukem or Quake on their hard drives. They play nights over the network in a Deathmatch mode. 16.Russian programmers never use joystick. Keyboard is a dangerous weapon in their fast hands. 17.Russian programmers never give up. They will hunt down bugs in their programs forgetting to eat and sleep. 18.Russian programmers' wives are never happy. They get no attention whatsoever as long as the computer is in the same house. 19.There are two kinds of Russian programmers - the ones that bring profit by actually doing something, and the ones that bring better profit by not interfering with anything. 20.Russian programmers are always underpaid. There is no money in the world that amounts to what they are really worth. 21.Big bosses don't like Russian programmers. Who likes a smart ass that knows everything? 22.Big bosses will never fire a Russian programmer. They know that even working 10 hours a week and being half-drunk Russian programmer will accomplish more than a Ph.D. both in the short and in the long run. 23.Russian programmers never prototype the code. They write on inspiration, sometimes without sleep, driven by the urge to see the new program run as soon as possible. When the program finally runs without glitches they drop on the floor and sleep for 20-30 hours happily smiling in their dreams. 24.Russian programmers never approach programming methodically. Every program is a piece of art and is usually written in a highly inconvenient time when deadlines for other projects are around the corner.

May 30 2005