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digitalmars.D - D is to programming as Apple is to computers?

reply Sam <Sam_member pathlink.com> writes:
This D language is rather obscure!  Even though it's a powerful new robust
language, no one I know has heard of it.

It needs fame!
It needs to become wide-spread!

Why has java and .NET become so successful?  It's not because they are great
languages, but because they have powerful runtime libraries behind them.

I think D needs the same!  Ok so you have the STL with D.  That's great.  But
How do create a web form with D?  A web service?  Can I parse XML with D?  Can I
do database access with D?  Where are the libraries to do all things?  Can I
develop GUI applications?

You may be able to use MFC with D, but that does not count as MFC is the biggest
piece of garbage I had the misfortune of working with!

Can I use D with ASP.NET?  Is there another, better web technology that can be
used with D?

If someone adjusts the D compiler to work with the .NET framework, this could
push D into the spotlight.  Any language can use .NET's Common Language Runtime.
I'd like to see that!

I wish I could do this and create a D#, but I've never worked with compilers
before!  Also, is this D compiler open source?  What language is it written in?

Sam-
sam987883 yahoo.com
May 25 2005
next sibling parent reply "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news terrainformatica.com> writes:
"Apple is to computers", umm...

http://www.dsource.org/projects/
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi
May 25 2005
parent Sam <Sam_member pathlink.com> writes:
Wow!  Cool!

In article <d73e02$28g8$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Andrew Fedoniouk says...
"Apple is to computers", umm...

http://www.dsource.org/projects/
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi

Sam- sam987883 yahoo.com
May 25 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Kyle Furlong <ky220 umail.ucsb.edu> writes:
Sam wrote:
 This D language is rather obscure!  Even though it's a powerful new robust
 language, no one I know has heard of it.
 
 It needs fame!
 It needs to become wide-spread!
 
 Why has java and .NET become so successful?  It's not because they are great
 languages, but because they have powerful runtime libraries behind them.
 
 I think D needs the same!  Ok so you have the STL with D.  That's great.  But
 How do create a web form with D?  A web service?  Can I parse XML with D?  Can
I
 do database access with D?  Where are the libraries to do all things?  Can I
 develop GUI applications?
 
 You may be able to use MFC with D, but that does not count as MFC is the
biggest
 piece of garbage I had the misfortune of working with!
 
 Can I use D with ASP.NET?  Is there another, better web technology that can be
 used with D?
 
 If someone adjusts the D compiler to work with the .NET framework, this could
 push D into the spotlight.  Any language can use .NET's Common Language
Runtime.
 I'd like to see that!
 
 I wish I could do this and create a D#, but I've never worked with compilers
 before!  Also, is this D compiler open source?  What language is it written in?
 
 Sam-
 sam987883 yahoo.com

I agree, as a language D is the latest and greatest, but in terms of the best use of my time... I will go with Java/.NET any day. I can code an application to search all the stocks on yahoo, with customizable queries, with C# in half the time it would take me to write just the foundation code that the .NET libraries provide to make this possible. From this perspective, Java/.NET will always be my platform of choice, my time is just too valuble to waste reinventing the wheel for each application I want to write. That being said, there are some good libraries out there. Mango is a good example. D needs more if it hopes to woo the Java/.NET crowd. If it doesnt, then, well, it does a very good job being the latest and greatest language in terms of the language itself.
May 25 2005
parent Kyle Furlong <ky220 umail.ucsb.edu> writes:
Kyle Furlong wrote:
 Sam wrote:
 
 This D language is rather obscure!  Even though it's a powerful new 
 robust
 language, no one I know has heard of it.

 It needs fame!
 It needs to become wide-spread!

 Why has java and .NET become so successful?  It's not because they are 
 great
 languages, but because they have powerful runtime libraries behind them.

 I think D needs the same!  Ok so you have the STL with D.  That's 
 great.  But
 How do create a web form with D?  A web service?  Can I parse XML with 
 D?  Can I
 do database access with D?  Where are the libraries to do all things?  
 Can I
 develop GUI applications?

 You may be able to use MFC with D, but that does not count as MFC is 
 the biggest
 piece of garbage I had the misfortune of working with!

 Can I use D with ASP.NET?  Is there another, better web technology 
 that can be
 used with D?

 If someone adjusts the D compiler to work with the .NET framework, 
 this could
 push D into the spotlight.  Any language can use .NET's Common 
 Language Runtime.
 I'd like to see that!

 I wish I could do this and create a D#, but I've never worked with 
 compilers
 before!  Also, is this D compiler open source?  What language is it 
 written in?

 Sam-
 sam987883 yahoo.com

I agree, as a language D is the latest and greatest, but in terms of the best use of my time... I will go with Java/.NET any day. I can code an application to search all the stocks on yahoo, with customizable queries, with C# in half the time it would take me to write just the foundation code that the .NET libraries provide to make this possible. From this perspective, Java/.NET will always be my platform of choice, my time is just too valuble to waste reinventing the wheel for each application I want to write. That being said, there are some good libraries out there. Mango is a good example. D needs more if it hopes to woo the Java/.NET crowd. If it doesnt, then, well, it does a very good job being the latest and greatest language in terms of the language itself.

I disagree, however, that D should be made into a .NET language. That destroys almost all the benifits I get from D, and is not in the spirit of what D was created to be. Native code. Speed. Sexiness. What I want to see is a native code library with all the functionality of the .NET and Java libraries. That would win me over. D would be my language of choice for anything and everything I could ever want to write. Perhaps this is where a corporate entity could help the D community? Not closed source, hopefully, but some sort of organization to orchestrate the creation and maintenance of these libraries.
May 25 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent clayasaurus <clayasaurus gmail.com> writes:
Sam wrote:
 This D language is rather obscure!  Even though it's a powerful new robust
 language, no one I know has heard of it.
 
 It needs fame!
 It needs to become wide-spread!
 
 Why has java and .NET become so successful?  It's not because they are great
 languages, but because they have powerful runtime libraries behind them.

And the marketing clout and resources of Microsoft and Sun.
 
 I think D needs the same!  Ok so you have the STL with D.  That's great.  But
 How do create a web form with D?  A web service?  Can I parse XML with D?  Can
I
 do database access with D?  Where are the libraries to do all things?  Can I
 develop GUI applications?

I think dsource.org or the D wiki is the best place to learn such things.
 
 You may be able to use MFC with D, but that does not count as MFC is the
biggest
 piece of garbage I had the misfortune of working with!
 

haha.
 Can I use D with ASP.NET?  Is there another, better web technology that can be
 used with D?
 

humm... not sure.
 If someone adjusts the D compiler to work with the .NET framework, this could
 push D into the spotlight.  Any language can use .NET's Common Language
Runtime.
 I'd like to see that!
 

Not impossible at least... http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?DDotNet
 I wish I could do this and create a D#, but I've never worked with compilers
 before!  Also, is this D compiler open source?  What language is it written in?
 

Frontend is open source, backend is not. There is a project called 'gdc' which hooks the opensource frontend to an opensource backend 'gcc'. I think D is written in C++ and/or C.
 Sam-
 sam987883 yahoo.com

May 25 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent Trevor Parscal <Trevor_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <d73cm4$204o$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Sam says...
Why has java and .NET become so successful?  It's not because they are great
languages, but because they have powerful runtime libraries behind them.

Java and .NET are languages that are meant to abstract the OS, and in doing so they have come up with all kinds of great things you can do with 1 line of code. D is designed to be a native language, and it's better at doing multi-platform versioning than C or C++, but it was never meant to abstract the platform completely. If you want to see those powerful 1 line functions in D, than write a library that does it, and make sure your library is cross platform. If you just want to get things done so fast you don't care whats underneeth so long as it works, than I suppose something like Java or .NET is right up you alley. I went from Visual Basic 6 -> Perl -> PHP -> C -> C++ -> D... So for me I getting closer to system level was important, but than i wanted more power at my fingertips. Thus D = best choice for me. Just a thought. Thanks, Trevor Parscal www.trevorparscal.com trevorparscal hotmail.com
May 26 2005
prev sibling next sibling parent reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
Sam wrote:

 Why has java and .NET become so successful?  It's not because they are great
 languages, but because they have powerful runtime libraries behind them.

Somehow I think they are well-known to the public because they have powerful marketing divisions behind them... But the libraries help. :-) A back-end for bytecode (JVM/CLI) would be a neat hack, but a little outside the scope of a native language with support for inline asm even?
 I think D needs the same!  Ok so you have the STL with D.  That's great.  But
 How do create a web form with D?  A web service?  Can I parse XML with D?  Can
I
 do database access with D?  Where are the libraries to do all things?  Can I
 develop GUI applications?

You can use any C library with D, by creating an "import module" from the header. You can't use any C++ library, that doesn't: extern "C". :-( Most (native compiling) languages on the planet can export a "C" API. So you should be able to use most regular such system libraries with D? --anders PS. How does Apple enter into the picture ? "Smaller than Microsoft" ?
May 26 2005
parent Trevor Parscal <Trevor_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <d746it$25aa$1 digitaldaemon.com>,
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= says...
PS. How does Apple enter into the picture ? "Smaller than Microsoft" ?

Apple I believe was a refence to being a small nitch, that executes a specific task, and not much else. To me Apple is a bad analogy, but I got the idea.. or did I?
May 26 2005
prev sibling parent Dave <Dave_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <d73cm4$204o$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Sam says...
This D language is rather obscure!  Even though it's a powerful new robust
language, no one I know has heard of it.

It needs fame!
It needs to become wide-spread!

Why has java and .NET become so successful?  It's not because they are great
languages, but because they have powerful runtime libraries behind them.

I think D needs the same!  Ok so you have the STL with D.  That's great.  But
How do create a web form with D?  A web service?  Can I parse XML with D?  Can I
do database access with D?  Where are the libraries to do all things?  Can I
develop GUI applications?

You may be able to use MFC with D, but that does not count as MFC is the biggest
piece of garbage I had the misfortune of working with!

Can I use D with ASP.NET?  Is there another, better web technology that can be
used with D?

If someone adjusts the D compiler to work with the .NET framework, this could
push D into the spotlight.  Any language can use .NET's Common Language Runtime.
I'd like to see that!

I wish I could do this and create a D#, but I've never worked with compilers
before!  Also, is this D compiler open source?  What language is it written in?

Sam-
sam987883 yahoo.com

Realistically, I think Java and .NET have their area of the market covered. The other part of the market, lower level, systems programming - a better, faster and OOP capable C - is what I think D has a shot at right out of the gate. I've always been of the opinion that D needs to win the hearts and minds of the C programmer first and the rest will come. There are still some things that C++ is (perhaps only marginally) better at in the OOP and generic world and therefore getting the attention of the C++ people will be very hard. Especially since the base D language doesn't really do anything that C++ libraries haven't already done for years (and are therefore good at and hard to justify leaving), and because C++ programmers generally have years of pain behind their knowledge and their expertise is still in demand. It's pretty hard to justify chucking a very useful language that your job relies on when the alternative isn't an order of magnitude better for what you do day-to-day. The only major - as in very widely used - area left that the base D library doesn't cover (at least to some extent) would be GUI development, but there has been lots of promising work there announced and demonstrated recently. My three current major nits about the D language involve 1) the lack of a constructor for value types - both native and structs - because this complicates generic programming or forces you to use the heap with classes. 2) the fact that read-only value types can't be/aren't passed into a function by reference (which can really lead to some comparably slow code) and 3) the lack of some type of "read-only" storage attribute for aggragates. #1 was taken care of in part by iftype, but I still don't think that cuts it. The whole issue is really a lack of a constructor for value types and no matter how good the GC is, allocating classes on the heap when the stack would do is going to be slow. An alternative would be to allow plain-jane classes to be stack allocated somehow, but the design of D pretty much rules that out. #2 I think can be an optimization done by the compiler. The way things are, the same major mistake that Java made w.r.t. performance (passing things around efficiently means you have to allocate on the heap) is being repeated to some extent with D. Over-reliance on allocating/copying things repeatedly is the single largest reason why a lot of Java and C# code will never have barn-burner performance, and sadly it looks like D is going down the same path because of issue's 1 and 2. If these are fixed, then 2 of 3 isn't bad, but as Kris mentioned, to be useful in the small device world, standardized D needs some type of read-only storage attribute for aggragates too. - Dave
May 26 2005