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digitalmars.D - What do you love about D? Hate?

reply mh1252 AT messiah.edu <mh1252_member pathlink.com> writes:
Hey everyone, I am write an 8 page paper on D for my Organization of Programming
Languages class.  I thought it would be cool to ask the D community what you
love about D, and what you don't so much love.  It would make an interesting few
lines or paragraph in my paper to see what people more experienced with the
language think of it.  If you'd rather just e-mail your answer to me, feel free:
mh1252 AT messiah.edu.  Thanks!
Nov 20 2004
next sibling parent Matthias Becker <Matthias_member pathlink.com> writes:
Hey everyone, I am write an 8 page paper on D for my Organization of Programming
Languages class.  I thought it would be cool to ask the D community what you
love about D, and what you don't so much love.  It would make an interesting few
lines or paragraph in my paper to see what people more experienced with the
language think of it.  If you'd rather just e-mail your answer to me, feel free:
mh1252 AT messiah.edu.  Thanks!

What I like: DbC What I don't like: missing type-inference
Nov 21 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Charlie <Charlie_member pathlink.com> writes:
For me it's the ability to express myself easily and clearily.  For example ,
hashes are a construct I use alot.

C++
===

std::map<string,HTREEITEM> projectMap;
/* populate */
std::map<string,HTREEITEM>::iterator it;
it = projectMap.find("DFL");
if ( it != projectMap.end () ) item = it->second;

D
===

HTREEITEM [ char [] ] projectMap;
/* populate */
if ( ! (projectMap["DFL"] is null)  ) item = projectMap["DFL"];

Java
====

TreeMap projectMap = new TreeMap();
/* populate */
if ( projectMap.containsKey("DFL") ) item = projectMap.get("DFL");



And unless you use STL all the time you'll probably have to break out your STL
refrence to check on the syntax for all of that.  Java's way is easier on the
eyes , but performance of java for me has always been unaccceptable, that and
Object Oriented only mind-set is limiting for me.

It may sound like something small , and really there's nothing revolutionary
about D ( except it does what it does better than the rest :) ) , but when your
talking about large scale projects I think it will make a huge difference.  I
think that's where D will shine most.

And D makes an awesome prototype language, the compiler is blazing fast , faster
than any compiler Ive ever used ( javac, dmc, gcc, cl , borlands C++ and pascal
which is super fast too ) , but more than that, the pseudocode you jot down when
working on a new project almost directly translates to D code!

Every programmer has their own method -- I personally like to stack layer on
layer of abstraction till the end code can be used as a one liner ( a one liner
with clear intentions , one could write a one liner in PERL that would solve
world hunger but no-one would be able to understand it, including the author ),
and D being higher level than all of the compiled languages I've used makes it
simple to do.


Cons
====

It's very slow to develop , its been pre 1.0 for going on 6 years.  Walter's
awesome and we all appreciate what he's done , but he seems kind of an old
schooler.  I'd prefer paying for D, so he can higher a team of developers and
get this thing in to production.  Or seek investors ... anything to speed up
development so we can get a _commercial_ quality compiler ( I've actually been
using D at work for 6 months, and it works beautifully the compiler is great,
but something must be done about phobos ... its embarasing).


I think the easiest way to convert programmers is to show them good D code,
compare them against their favorite language.  Miguel's d-neural , kris's Mango
( Im sure there are many others , going to check out DUI now that its finnaly
got an installer for windows , im a lazy bastard and require an installer! ) are
examples of really good code, that compared to other languages make D look
awesome.

Just rambling,
Charlie


In article <cno86k$1imr$1 digitaldaemon.com>, mh1252 AT messiah.edu says...
Hey everyone, I am write an 8 page paper on D for my Organization of Programming
Languages class.  I thought it would be cool to ask the D community what you
love about D, and what you don't so much love.  It would make an interesting few
lines or paragraph in my paper to see what people more experienced with the
language think of it.  If you'd rather just e-mail your answer to me, feel free:
mh1252 AT messiah.edu.  Thanks!

Nov 21 2004
parent reply Dave <Dave_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <cnqqun$2981$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Charlie says...

Cons
====

It's very slow to develop , its been pre 1.0 for going on 6 years.  Walter's
awesome and we all appreciate what he's done , but he seems kind of an old
schooler.  I'd prefer paying for D, so he can higher a team of developers and
get this thing in to production.  Or seek investors ... anything to speed up
development so we can get a _commercial_ quality compiler ( I've actually been
using D at work for 6 months, and it works beautifully the compiler is great,
but something must be done about phobos ... its embarasing).

[I don't want this to come across as 'confrontational' because it's not - it is a request for specific criticism so we can fix phobos or come up with an alternative]. What do you find embarrassing about phobos? Specifics please.. Programming style, design, bugs (if so, of what specifically), lack of functionality, performance? Again, specifics please. I'm thinking (and someone who knows of a replacement that is 80% finished please correct me if I'm wrong, but) it may be a bit late in the game to rewrite the core library for v1. FWIW, I've had little problem with any Phobos library routines myself but there are certainly parts of it that I haven't used. The basic I/O, string, conversion, stream, buffered stream, regex, zip and math parts I've used certainly seem to work well in general. I'm thinking the D community may be best served by improving phobos unless there is something else better nearing completion out there.. - Dave
Nov 22 2004
parent reply Charlie <Charlie_member pathlink.com> writes:
[I don't want this to come across as 'confrontational' because it's not - it is
a request for specific criticism so we can fix phobos or come up with an
alternative].

No problem at all! :)
Specifics please.. 

Well right now its a mixture of OO and procedural, which I think is inconsistent. I would prefer phobos all procedural, and an optional OO lib built atop ( though I think im alone on this one ), or just OO , anything that is consistent. Theirs been lots of bugs but they usually get fixed as they go. It just seems to me everytime I do some hardcore D I find something in phobos. Last weekend was trying to use std.math2 and found toString(real) in both std.string and std.math2. And I'd like to see math import math2 as math2 is not in the docs. And I've really grown to like the import system , but I think its a sign of bad design when i cant import std.c.stdlib and std.random w/o conflicts ( function rand() conflicts ). Maybe phobos's rand() should be renamed to random() , or the std.c.stdlib needs to be renamed. I think all of phobos should be conflict free. These conflicts seem to appear all the time for me, probably im just unlucky.
I'm thinking (and someone who knows of a replacement that is 80% finished please
correct me if I'm wrong

There is a group at http://www.dsource.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=31& that is making Ares , a new phobos. I think they are waiting on DLL's ( so phobos can be a shared lib ). And maybe embarasing was a strong word , but D is such an amazing language , to have phobos anything less than 100% is ... unacceptable ( can't seem to stay away from these words).
I'm thinking the D community may be best
served by improving phobos unless there is something else better nearing
completion out there..

It would suck to have all the existing code required to be re-written , but we _are_ still pre 1.0 , and maybe still fair game :) ? ( I dont mean it to sound so negative but D must succeed! ) Charlie In article <cntqpp$15qr$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Dave says...
In article <cnqqun$2981$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Charlie says...

Cons
====

It's very slow to develop , its been pre 1.0 for going on 6 years.  Walter's
awesome and we all appreciate what he's done , but he seems kind of an old
schooler.  I'd prefer paying for D, so he can higher a team of developers and
get this thing in to production.  Or seek investors ... anything to speed up
development so we can get a _commercial_ quality compiler ( I've actually been
using D at work for 6 months, and it works beautifully the compiler is great,
but something must be done about phobos ... its embarasing).

[I don't want this to come across as 'confrontational' because it's not - it is a request for specific criticism so we can fix phobos or come up with an alternative]. What do you find embarrassing about phobos? Specifics please.. Programming style, design, bugs (if so, of what specifically), lack of functionality, performance? Again, specifics please. I'm thinking (and someone who knows of a replacement that is 80% finished please correct me if I'm wrong, but) it may be a bit late in the game to rewrite the core library for v1. FWIW, I've had little problem with any Phobos library routines myself but there are certainly parts of it that I haven't used. The basic I/O, string, conversion, stream, buffered stream, regex, zip and math parts I've used certainly seem to work well in general. I'm thinking the D community may be best served by improving phobos unless there is something else better nearing completion out there.. - Dave

Nov 22 2004
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Charlie" <Charlie_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:cnua47$1u8f$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 And I've really grown to like the import system , but I think its a sign

 design when i cant import std.c.stdlib and std.random w/o conflicts (

 rand() conflicts ).  Maybe phobos's rand() should be renamed to random() ,

 the std.c.stdlib needs to be renamed.  I think all of phobos should be

 free.

If they are accessed as std.c.stdlib.rand() and std.random.rand(), there isn't a conflict. That's the beauty of using modules instead of #include, you don't have to give everything a unique name across the board.
Nov 26 2004
parent Charlie <Charlie_member pathlink.com> writes:
Yea that is cool hadn't thought of it that way. ( but i still think phobos
shouldnt have any conflicts :D ).

Sean Kelly and the Ares crew are making some serious headway with a re-organized
phobos at http://www.dsource.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=31& , looks very
promising!

Charlie

In article <co8gkp$1p92$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...
"Charlie" <Charlie_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:cnua47$1u8f$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 And I've really grown to like the import system , but I think its a sign

 design when i cant import std.c.stdlib and std.random w/o conflicts (

 rand() conflicts ).  Maybe phobos's rand() should be renamed to random() ,

 the std.c.stdlib needs to be renamed.  I think all of phobos should be

 free.

If they are accessed as std.c.stdlib.rand() and std.random.rand(), there isn't a conflict. That's the beauty of using modules instead of #include, you don't have to give everything a unique name across the board.

Dec 10 2004
prev sibling parent reply "Garett Bass" <gtbass studiotekne.com> writes:
Near and dear:
    I find the syntax of D very expressive and easy to learn.
    I like templates and operator overloading.
    I'm looking forward to using delegates.

Less than ideal:
    I'd like to have Java-style inner (adaptor) classes. 
Nov 21 2004
parent reply Matthias Becker <Matthias_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <cnr6bt$2r85$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Garett Bass says...
Near and dear:
    I find the syntax of D very expressive and easy to learn.

    I like templates and operator overloading.

this aspect, e.g. C++'s templates, O'Caml's/SML's functors, ...
Less than ideal:
    I'd like to have Java-style inner (adaptor) classes. 

Nov 27 2004
next sibling parent =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
Matthias Becker wrote:

   I find the syntax of D very expressive and easy to learn.

Only if you are familiar with C-like languages.

That is one of the design goals of D:
 Major Goals of D:
  Have a short learning curve for programmers
  comfortable with programming in C or C++.

This should also make it familiar for programmers used to Java or C# ?
 Who D is Not For
  As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more
  suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second
  language for intermediate to advanced programmers.

(from http://www.digitalmars.com/d/overview.html) --anders
Nov 27 2004
prev sibling parent Ant <duitoolkit yahoo.ca> writes:
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 12:03:15 +0000, Matthias Becker wrote:

 In article <cnr6bt$2r85$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Garett Bass says...
 
Less than ideal:
    I'd like to have Java-style inner (adaptor) classes. 


I'd like to know that. Nobody knows, nobody sais why. We should have inner classes even if not the anonyumous classes java has. Ant
Nov 27 2004