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digitalmars.D - Patient Lurkers?

reply Benji Smith <dlanguage xxagg.com> writes:
I used to be more actively involved in the newsgroup here. But work,
freelancing, family, and friends have become bigger time-commitments
over the last year, so I haven't been contributing much, mostly
because I haven't had much time to tinker with programming in D.

But I'm still lurking. At least once a week, I check in here and skim
through the new posts to the NG. I always have my eye out for when
Walter posts that message about the release of the 1.0 compiler.

And at that point--when I'll know there's both language and compiler
stability--I plan on getting a little bit more involved and starting
to tinker again. There are libraries I'd like to write and contribute
to community, but--for my own reasons--I don't want to do it until D
reaches 1.0.

Anyhow, it seems as though there are far fewer posts per day than
there used to be in the D newsgroup. Is the original momentum of
interest in D slowing down? Or do you think there are lots of people
like me who are waiting in the wings for the big event, the release of
the first major version of the compiler?

When that happens, do you think interest in this language will surge
back up again?

--Benji Smith
Nov 16 2004
next sibling parent Charlie <Charlie_member pathlink.com> writes:
Im in the lurker category , waiting for 1.0.  I think once D hits 1.0 , we as
the D community will need to do some advocating , putting projects up on
sourceforge / freshmeat , spreading the word to fellow programmers etc.

Charlie



In article <39fkp0hvbjgkljp5gc2ammhvb14ea5jkq1 4ax.com>, Benji Smith says...
I used to be more actively involved in the newsgroup here. But work,
freelancing, family, and friends have become bigger time-commitments
over the last year, so I haven't been contributing much, mostly
because I haven't had much time to tinker with programming in D.

But I'm still lurking. At least once a week, I check in here and skim
through the new posts to the NG. I always have my eye out for when
Walter posts that message about the release of the 1.0 compiler.

And at that point--when I'll know there's both language and compiler
stability--I plan on getting a little bit more involved and starting
to tinker again. There are libraries I'd like to write and contribute
to community, but--for my own reasons--I don't want to do it until D
reaches 1.0.

Anyhow, it seems as though there are far fewer posts per day than
there used to be in the D newsgroup. Is the original momentum of
interest in D slowing down? Or do you think there are lots of people
like me who are waiting in the wings for the big event, the release of
the first major version of the compiler?

When that happens, do you think interest in this language will surge
back up again?

--Benji Smith

Nov 16 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent "Ben Hinkle" <bhinkle mathworks.com> writes:
"Benji Smith" <dlanguage xxagg.com> wrote in message
news:39fkp0hvbjgkljp5gc2ammhvb14ea5jkq1 4ax.com...
 I used to be more actively involved in the newsgroup here. But work,
 freelancing, family, and friends have become bigger time-commitments
 over the last year, so I haven't been contributing much, mostly
 because I haven't had much time to tinker with programming in D.

 But I'm still lurking. At least once a week, I check in here and skim
 through the new posts to the NG. I always have my eye out for when
 Walter posts that message about the release of the 1.0 compiler.

 And at that point--when I'll know there's both language and compiler
 stability--I plan on getting a little bit more involved and starting
 to tinker again. There are libraries I'd like to write and contribute
 to community, but--for my own reasons--I don't want to do it until D
 reaches 1.0.

 Anyhow, it seems as though there are far fewer posts per day than
 there used to be in the D newsgroup. Is the original momentum of
 interest in D slowing down? Or do you think there are lots of people
 like me who are waiting in the wings for the big event, the release of
 the first major version of the compiler?

 When that happens, do you think interest in this language will surge
 back up again?

 --Benji Smith

It's tough to keep the level up when pretty much everyone is tinkering. It's very easy to have one's attention turn elsewhere and tinker on something else. All the talk of "wait until after 1.0" has probably thrown a wet blanket on some important topics that should open up after 1.0. Maybe there are some nasty bugs that have frustrated people, too, so that fixing those will bring them back to D. It's nice to see posts like DUI getting working again. Also I'm really glad David Friedman is keeping gdc going and that it is getting into the gcc branch. That will go a long way towards programmers accepting D. -Ben
Nov 16 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Benji Smith" <dlanguage xxagg.com> wrote in message
news:39fkp0hvbjgkljp5gc2ammhvb14ea5jkq1 4ax.com...
 Anyhow, it seems as though there are far fewer posts per day than
 there used to be in the D newsgroup. Is the original momentum of
 interest in D slowing down? Or do you think there are lots of people
 like me who are waiting in the wings for the big event, the release of
 the first major version of the compiler?

 When that happens, do you think interest in this language will surge
 back up again?

The hits on the web site and the downloads of dmd are as high as ever. There was a spike up last April, but I think that was the result of two articles on D out that month in the programming magazines. Interestingly, the traffic regularly drops off on the weekends, but comes back on mondays. That's a strong indication that people are using D at work!
Nov 16 2004
parent Wally <Wally_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <cndr3h$1cos$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...
"Benji Smith" <dlanguage xxagg.com> wrote in message
news:39fkp0hvbjgkljp5gc2ammhvb14ea5jkq1 4ax.com...
 Anyhow, it seems as though there are far fewer posts per day than
 there used to be in the D newsgroup. Is the original momentum of
 interest in D slowing down? Or do you think there are lots of people
 like me who are waiting in the wings for the big event, the release of
 the first major version of the compiler?

 When that happens, do you think interest in this language will surge
 back up again?

The hits on the web site and the downloads of dmd are as high as ever. There was a spike up last April, but I think that was the result of two articles on D out that month in the programming magazines. Interestingly, the traffic regularly drops off on the weekends, but comes back on mondays. That's a strong indication that people are using D at work!

Either that or they are fooling the PHB's and playing around - it looks a lot like C/++ (as if they'd know the difference) <G> D sure is a lot more fun than - Yikes .. gotta go!
Nov 16 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent "Zz" <Zz Zz.com> writes:
"Benji Smith" <dlanguage xxagg.com> wrote in message
news:39fkp0hvbjgkljp5gc2ammhvb14ea5jkq1 4ax.com...
 But I'm still lurking. At least once a week, I check in here and skim
 through the new posts to the NG. I always have my eye out for when
 Walter posts that message about the release of the 1.0 compiler.

 And at that point--when I'll know there's both language and compiler
 stability--I plan on getting a little bit more involved and starting
 to tinker again. There are libraries I'd like to write and contribute
 to community, but--for my own reasons--I don't want to do it until D
 reaches 1.0.

I only tinker with D and have done a few projects of my own (It would be nice to have a good IDE and debugger), a number of people I know rejected it due to lack of a usable debugger and IDE (understandable if your used to Visual Studio or CodeWarrior). G
Nov 16 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Lynn Allan" <l_d_allan adelphia.net> writes:
I have similar thoughts.

I *really* want to use 'D' on some freeware projects, but ....

* debugging has improved, but has a ways to go

* gui's have improved, but also have a ways to go (thx to those
working on them)

* phobos library seems more than adequate for my usage, but there are
so many ng complaints (and inferences that it will be overhauled) that
I'm reluctant to use it in depth

* difficult for this newbie to use external C libraries because of
linkage issues unless DMC used

* as near as I can tell ... so far it seems like D's best usage would
be high performance 'ports' of Java console apps (such as things like
fop and other Apache-like code for xml, other dog-slow java code,
etc.) I'm aware of efforts to convert mature C and C++ libraries to
'D', but this seems like an unproductive use of time.  I'm not the
most imaginative person around, but with gui's still hard to develop,
I haven't really figured out what 'D' is good for in the short to
moderate time frame.
Nov 17 2004
parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Lynn Allan" <l_d_allan adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:cnfmrc$119p$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 I have similar thoughts.

 I *really* want to use 'D' on some freeware projects, but ....

 * debugging has improved, but has a ways to go

In what way?
 * gui's have improved, but also have a ways to go (thx to those
 working on them)

 * phobos library seems more than adequate for my usage, but there are
 so many ng complaints (and inferences that it will be overhauled) that
 I'm reluctant to use it in depth

I use it in depth <g>.
 * difficult for this newbie to use external C libraries because of
 linkage issues unless DMC used

Why not use DMC? DMC is a well used and popular C compiler.
 * as near as I can tell ... so far it seems like D's best usage would
 be high performance 'ports' of Java console apps (such as things like
 fop and other Apache-like code for xml, other dog-slow java code,
 etc.) I'm aware of efforts to convert mature C and C++ libraries to
 'D', but this seems like an unproductive use of time.  I'm not the
 most imaginative person around, but with gui's still hard to develop,
 I haven't really figured out what 'D' is good for in the short to
 moderate time frame.

D is good for any project you'd consider using C or C++ for. Sometimes using a particular existing library may dictate what language you use, but other than that, why?
Nov 17 2004
next sibling parent reply "Mathias Bierschenk" <Mathias.Bierschenk web.de> writes:
Am Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:09:43 -0800 schrieb Walter  
<newshound digitalmars.com>:

 D is good for any project you'd consider using C or C++ for. Sometimes  
 using
 a particular existing library may dictate what language you use, but  
 other
 than that, why?

Some time ago I have been thinking about creating a nine men's morris game. The first attempt was in pure C and directly using the Win32 API. Because it was rather a horrible 'ad hoc' hack instead of structured programming it soon became clear that I'd have to start from scratch again. Since I generally try to learn from my mistakes and I didn't want to waste time again I decided to better plan and anticipate possible later requirements. Aside from things like considering morris variants other than the "classical" I found it would be nice to make the game open source, and platform independent if possible. It seemed that wxWidgets was the best solution for the GUI and I finally managed to get it to work with DigitalMars C/C++. The drawbacks, however, are that the EXE files quickly become larger than 1 MB even for a simple Hello World program, and that I must learn how to use C++ *and* wxWidgets (I only know C at the moment). Around this time I discovered the D programming language which offered a far easier alternative to C++. I liked the run-time array-bounds checking and I often find D's error messages more helpful than C's, I love garbage collection, and so on. Although the D way of writing Win32 GUI apps looks weird it seems close enough to C that I think I can get used to it. The problem is that my program would still be chained to Win32. Admittedly, that would also be true if it was written in pure C using the Win32 API, but there are C compilers for platforms other than Win32 and Linux (DOS, Win 3.x, MacOS X, MacOS classic, etc.), so at least the morris playing 'engine' could actually be ported. I know there are ports of GUI libraries to the D language on the dsource.org site, but it seems there isn't any usable yet (except unDig but this is only for Win32) and I don't feel adventurous enough to test an alpha release. One idea of open source is that people can help each other. If I use a rather unknown language like D, how many people could contribute to the project? Sorry for this long-winded and potentially off-topic message. It's not meant as a rant. I'd really appreciate suggestions and ideas how to tackle this morris project with D. Thanks! Mathias
Nov 17 2004
next sibling parent Helmut Leitner <leitner wikiservice.at> writes:
Mathias Bierschenk wrote:
 Am Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:09:43 -0800 schrieb Walter  
 <newshound digitalmars.com>:
 
 D is good for any project you'd consider using C or C++ for. 
 Sometimes  using
 a particular existing library may dictate what language you use, but  
 other
 than that, why?

Some time ago I have been thinking about creating a nine men's morris game. The first attempt was in pure C and directly using the Win32 API. Because it was rather a horrible 'ad hoc' hack instead of structured programming it soon became clear that I'd have to start from scratch again. Since I generally try to learn from my mistakes and I didn't want to waste time again I decided to better plan and anticipate possible later requirements. Aside from things like considering morris variants other than the "classical" I found it would be nice to make the game open source, and platform independent if possible. It seemed that wxWidgets was the best solution for the GUI and I finally managed to get it to work with DigitalMars C/C++. The drawbacks, however, are that the EXE files quickly become larger than 1 MB even for a simple Hello World program, and that I must learn how to use C++ *and* wxWidgets (I only know C at the moment). Around this time I discovered the D programming language which offered a far easier alternative to C++. I liked the run-time array-bounds checking and I often find D's error messages more helpful than C's, I love garbage collection, and so on. Although the D way of writing Win32 GUI apps looks weird it seems close enough to C that I think I can get used to it. The problem is that my program would still be chained to Win32. Admittedly, that would also be true if it was written in pure C using the Win32 API, but there are C compilers for platforms other than Win32 and Linux (DOS, Win 3.x, MacOS X, MacOS classic, etc.), so at least the morris playing 'engine' could actually be ported. I know there are ports of GUI libraries to the D language on the dsource.org site, but it seems there isn't any usable yet (except unDig but this is only for Win32) and I don't feel adventurous enough to test an alpha release. One idea of open source is that people can help each other. If I use a rather unknown language like D, how many people could contribute to the project? Sorry for this long-winded and potentially off-topic message. It's not meant as a rant. I'd really appreciate suggestions and ideas how to tackle this morris project with D. Thanks!

I think we - as D programming community - are at the point to start serious work. Maybe the signal is the sourceforge recognition of D, maybe the signal will be Walter's 1.00 release. Maybe it's not now, maybe it will be in a couple of weeks. Anyway, within 12 months there will be a hundred D project at sourceforge and dsource. All major task - like interfacing wcWidgets, building a gaming engine, a native portable D GUI, ... - will be tackling. Of course, no-one can know which projects will get support and will succeed in the short run. But I think it's a good time to try.
Nov 17 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent reply J C Calvarese <jcc7 cox.net> writes:
Mathias Bierschenk wrote:
 Some time ago I have been thinking about creating a nine men's morris  
 game. The first attempt was in pure C and directly using the Win32 API.  
 Because it was rather a horrible 'ad hoc' hack instead of structured  
 programming it soon became clear that I'd have to start from scratch  
 again. Since I generally try to learn from my mistakes and I didn't 
 want  to waste time again I decided to better plan and anticipate 
 possible later  requirements.

...
 Around this time I discovered the D programming language which offered 
 a  far easier alternative to C++. I liked the run-time array-bounds 
 checking  and I often find D's error messages more helpful than C's, I 
 love garbage  collection, and so on. Although the D way of writing Win32 
 GUI apps looks  weird it seems close enough to C that I think I can get 
 used to it.

I think the "D way of writing Win32 GUI apps" is going to vary widely depending on the particular GUI library.
 The problem is that my program would still be chained to Win32.  
 Admittedly, that would also be true if it was written in pure C using 
 the  Win32 API, but there are C compilers for platforms other than Win32 
 and  Linux (DOS, Win 3.x, MacOS X, MacOS classic, etc.), so at least the 
 morris  playing 'engine' could actually be ported. I know there are 
 ports of GUI  libraries to the D language on the dsource.org site, but 
 it seems there  isn't any usable yet (except unDig but this is only for 
 Win32) and I don't  feel adventurous enough to test an alpha release.
 One idea of open source is that people can help each other. If I use a  
 rather unknown language like D, how many people could contribute to the  
 project?

Do you require a GUI library that works for Linux and Win32? If Linux alone is good enough, you might try DUI (it uses GTK+): http://dui.sourceforge.net/ Ant, DUI's creator, is working on supporting Win32/GTK+. It sounds like he's close to releasing a new version of DUI that works with Windows, but I think he's still kicking the tires on it.
 Sorry for this long-winded and potentially off-topic message. It's not  
 meant as a rant. I'd really appreciate suggestions and ideas how to 
 tackle  this morris project with D. Thanks!

Thanks for your comments. They didn't come off as a rant or off-topic at all.
 
 Mathias

-- Justin (a/k/a jcc7) http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/
Nov 17 2004
next sibling parent reply Ant <Ant_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <cngn0t$2gmg$1 digitaldaemon.com>, J C Calvarese says...
Do you require a GUI library that works for Linux and Win32?

If Linux alone is good enough, you might try DUI (it uses GTK+): 
http://dui.sourceforge.net/

??? DUI always worked on windows! (sure, it's has a few more problem on windows then on linux, but those are getting solved) the released versions of DUI don't work with dmd 0.106. beside unimplemented features and a couple of bugs I had only types 2 complaints about DUI 1. it's a wrapper (can't to anything about it) 2. there are too many libs to install and link and whatever. I spend the last few weeks trying to come up with a solution to the second problem: 1.a - I created an installer to unzip GTK+ dll files and the import libs (generated by implib). This is ridiculous! Every windows Gtk application has it's own Gtk+ installer. mine is no exception - I have to say something to the win32 Gtk guy. In addition there are several independent projects that only install Gtk. The windows Gtk community has to select one as the 'official' installer. 1.b - I'm finishing a GUI wrapper for the DMD compiler that imports and links with all the necessary libraries. On linux it's trivial to use DUI as most developer's systems will have the Gtk+ developement environment setup - I'm not changing anything on the DUI linux distribution. (beside that I also offer leds for linux that make seasy to manage and compile multiple projects)
Ant, DUI's creator, is working on supporting Win32/GTK+. It sounds like 
he's close to releasing a new version of DUI that works with Windows, 
but I think he's still kicking the tires on it.

big tires. and when I started to project had 4 tires and it's now up to 18... but every thing it's now ready (unless I find another tire to kick). I should do a clean up today. I should package it and upload it tomorrow. that will mark the end of the changes I thought were necessary after the changes on dmd 0.91 - several months ago! many more headaches. I hope I can now continue with improving DUI and get the first Beta version out soon. I also hope to come up to leds for windows as I'm planing to do some development on windows. http://dui.sourceforge.net http://leds.sourceforge.net Ant
Nov 18 2004
parent reply John Reimer <brk_6502 yahoo.com> writes:
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:11:21 +0000, Ant wrote:

<snip>

 beside unimplemented features and a couple of bugs
 I had only types 2 complaints about DUI
 1. it's a wrapper (can't to anything about it)
 2. there are too many libs to install and link and whatever.
 
 I spend the last few weeks trying to come up with a solution to the
 second problem:
 1.a - I created an installer to unzip GTK+ dll files and the import libs
 (generated by implib). This is ridiculous! Every windows Gtk application
 has it's own Gtk+ installer. mine is no exception - I have to say
 something to the win32 Gtk guy. In addition there are several independent
 projects that only install Gtk. The windows Gtk community has to select
 one as the 'official' installer.
 1.b - I'm finishing a GUI wrapper for the DMD compiler that imports
 and links with all the necessary libraries.

Are the windows Gtk+ libraries dll's? If they are, you could simply do what what Derelict and the mango icu port do: runtime dynamic loading of the function names from the dlls (using std.loader). That way the user doesn't even have to think about compile time linkage and gtk+ packages. You would just have to ensure that the dll's were installed. Also std.loader works on both linux and win32 (while, it's not as critical on Linux, using std.loader there sure would make things easier). This would make DUI much more attractive to me and other's, I'm sure. I've avoided it for some time because of reason #2. It would take more work, but the benefits would be significant. :-) Later, John
Nov 19 2004
next sibling parent reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_F_Bj=F6rklund?= <afb algonet.se> writes:
John Reimer wrote:
 Also std.loader works on both linux and win32

And Mac OS X! ("darwin") GTK+ still sucks on Mac, though, but there is some progress: http://gtk-osx.sourceforge.net/ (Carbon) http://gtk-quartz.sourceforge.net/ (Cocoa) Meanwhile the X11 version works, if you run the X11 server... http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/x11/ --anders
Nov 18 2004
parent John Reimer <brk_6502 yahoo.com> writes:
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:02:47 +0100, Anders F Björklund wrote:

 John Reimer wrote:
 Also std.loader works on both linux and win32

And Mac OS X! ("darwin")

That's good to know! Yes, Mac OS X also then. :D
 GTK+ still sucks on Mac, though, but there is some progress:
 http://gtk-osx.sourceforge.net/ (Carbon)
 http://gtk-quartz.sourceforge.net/ (Cocoa)
 
 Meanwhile the X11 version works, if you run the X11 server...
 http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/x11/
 
 --anders

Great!
Nov 18 2004
prev sibling parent reply Ant <Ant_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <pan.2004.11.19.16.49.58.678433 yahoo.com>, John Reimer says...
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:11:21 +0000, Ant wrote:

<snip>

Are the windows Gtk+ libraries dll's?  If they are, you could simply do
what what Derelict and the mango icu port do:  runtime dynamic loading of
the function names from the dlls (using std.loader).  That way the
user doesn't even have to think about compile time linkage and gtk+
packages. You would just have to ensure that the dll's were installed.

thanks, I'll look at that. Ant
Nov 18 2004
parent reply John Reimer <brk_6502 yahoo.com> writes:
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:05:40 +0000, Ant wrote:

 In article <pan.2004.11.19.16.49.58.678433 yahoo.com>, John Reimer says...
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:11:21 +0000, Ant wrote:

<snip>

Are the windows Gtk+ libraries dll's?  If they are, you could simply do
what what Derelict and the mango icu port do:  runtime dynamic loading of
the function names from the dlls (using std.loader).  That way the
user doesn't even have to think about compile time linkage and gtk+
packages. You would just have to ensure that the dll's were installed.

thanks, I'll look at that. Ant

And if you don't like the synesis license that's still in std.loader (and phobos, in general), it shouldn't be too difficult to role your own version of the module. :-P
Nov 18 2004
parent reply Ant <Ant_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <pan.2004.11.18.18.00.56.261484 yahoo.com>, John Reimer says...
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:05:40 +0000, Ant wrote:

 In article <pan.2004.11.19.16.49.58.678433 yahoo.com>, John Reimer says...
 (using std.loader).  

thanks, I'll look at that. Ant

And if you don't like the synesis license that's still in std.loader (and phobos, in general),

Oh:( I can't look at code with that license :( I wouldn't mind using it if it was documented externally...
 it shouldn't be too difficult to role your own
 version of the module.

I'm not sure about that, I don't know the first thing about it. any pointers? I remember Matthew saying it was very simple and fast to do it. Walter, when will the license be explicitly changed on the source code? Ant
Nov 18 2004
parent reply John Reimer <brk_6502 yahoo.com> writes:
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:30:04 +0000, Ant wrote:

<snip>

 I'm not sure about that, I don't know the first thing about it.
 any pointers? I remember Matthew saying it was very simple and fast to
 do it.
 

Well, just to clarify, Derelict uses std.loader for interfacing with both win32 and linux shared libraries. In Mango's ICU, Kris has implemented support for win32 only, since that's the system he works on; I may try to get the Linux side of it worked out. Mango ICU actually does not use std.loader, so for DUI on windows, you probably should look at how Mango does it (it's quite simple, thankfully). He makes use of only two win32 calls: LoadLibraryA() and GetProcAddress(). See his nifty FunctionLoader class in http://svn.dsource.org/svn/projects/mango/trunk/mango/icu/ICU.d Examples of how he uses that class can be found in the other ICU modules. You should be able to use it very similarly in DUI. If you can do the same in your project, I think DUI will start looking very attractive to people. Later, John
Nov 18 2004
parent Ant <Ant_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <pan.2004.11.18.19.47.31.302185 yahoo.com>, John Reimer says...
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:30:04 +0000, Ant wrote:

<snip>

 I'm not sure about that, I don't know the first thing about it.
 any pointers? I remember Matthew saying it was very simple and fast to
 do it.
 

Well, just to clarify, Derelict uses std.loader for interfacing with both win32 and linux shared libraries. In Mango's ICU, Kris has implemented support for win32 only, since that's the system he works on; I may try to get the Linux side of it worked out. Mango ICU actually does not use std.loader, so for DUI on windows, you probably should look at how Mango does it (it's quite simple, thankfully). He makes use of only two win32 calls: LoadLibraryA() and GetProcAddress(). See his nifty FunctionLoader class in http://svn.dsource.org/svn/projects/mango/trunk/mango/icu/ICU.d Examples of how he uses that class can be found in the other ICU modules. You should be able to use it very similarly in DUI. If you can do the same in your project, I think DUI will start looking very attractive to people.

thanks again. I'm waiting for this also to make leds modular instead of monolitic, I thought I needed shared libs for that. leds original design should allow for easy conversion. Ant
Nov 18 2004
prev sibling parent reply "Mathias Bierschenk" <Mathias.Bierschenk web.de> writes:
Am Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:31:33 -0600 schrieb J C Calvarese <jcc7 cox.net>:

 Do you require a GUI library that works for Linux and Win32?

 If Linux alone is good enough, you might try DUI (it uses GTK+):  
 http://dui.sourceforge.net/

 Ant, DUI's creator, is working on supporting Win32/GTK+. It sounds like  
 he's close to releasing a new version of DUI that works with Windows,  
 but I think he's still kicking the tires on it.

The main point of my post was that it's a pity that currently D is less cross-platform than C/C++. On the other hand, it's great to hear that work on D and its GUI libraries still goes on. I decided to give D a try for my Morris project. I start with the engine stuff on the commandline, and then see what's available for GUI programming. Could take some time anyway... ;-) Ah, by the way: As already mentioned, I come from the C programming language and always considered C++ as too difficult. Now that I start with D it seems to make sense to learn something about object oriented programming. But the tutorial at dsource.org doesn't cover the basics about object orientation with D (or I didn't find them?), and the official D documentation is not suitable for beginners. Do I have to learn C++ first, anyway? ;-) Mathias
Nov 18 2004
next sibling parent Thomas Kuehne <thomas-dloop kuehne.thisisspam.cn> writes:
Mathias Bierschenk schrieb am Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:20:30 +0100:
 Ah, by the way: As already mentioned, I come from the C programming  
 language and always considered C++ as too difficult. Now that I start with  
 D it seems to make sense to learn something about object oriented  
 programming. But the tutorial at dsource.org doesn't cover the basics  
 about object orientation with D (or I didn't find them?), and the official  
 D documentation is not suitable for beginners.
 Do I have to learn C++ first, anyway? ;-)

Maybe you should read a Java tutorial. If you use one source file per D-class, D's basic object orientated features are very similar to Java. Of course you'll miss struct and templates/mixins this way, but Java should provide you with some knowledge in "object oriented programming". Thomas
Nov 18 2004
prev sibling parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Mathias Bierschenk" <Mathias.Bierschenk web.de> wrote in message
news:opshn40gpu9gaiaw dialin-212-144-051-146.arcor-ip.net...
 The main point of my post was that it's a pity that currently D is less
 cross-platform than C/C++. On the other hand, it's great to hear that work
 on D and its GUI libraries still goes on.
 I decided to give D a try for my Morris project. I start with the engine
 stuff on the commandline, and then see what's available for GUI
 programming. Could take some time anyway... ;-)
 Ah, by the way: As already mentioned, I come from the C programming
 language and always considered C++ as too difficult. Now that I start with
 D it seems to make sense to learn something about object oriented
 programming. But the tutorial at dsource.org doesn't cover the basics
 about object orientation with D (or I didn't find them?), and the official
 D documentation is not suitable for beginners.
 Do I have to learn C++ first, anyway? ;-)

I utterly failed to grok OOP from reading Bjarne's early C++ book. I didn't "get it" until I read a tutorial on Smalltalk. The problem with learning the fundamental concepts of OOP from C++ is that C++ has too many alternatives and complications thrown in.
Nov 18 2004
parent "Zz" <Zz Zz.com> writes:
 I utterly failed to grok OOP from reading Bjarne's early C++ book. I

 "get it" until I read a tutorial on Smalltalk. The problem with learning

 fundamental concepts of OOP from C++ is that C++ has too many alternatives
 and complications thrown in.

Nicola, this book gave examples in both Smalltalk and C++ for all the examples and I would say is still one of the best C++ OOP books around. Zz
Nov 18 2004
prev sibling parent Ilya Minkov <minkov cs.tum.edu> writes:
Mathias Bierschenk schrieb:

 One idea of open source is that people can help each other. If I use a  
 rather unknown language like D, how many people could contribute to the  
 project?

Frankly: it is very hard to expect other people to help, be project open-source or anything at all. Open-source is good when the author ends the effort, but someone else wants to build on it. Apart from that, D will seem very familiar to programmers who have worked with C++ and some Java. We shall also have a port of wxWidgets, as it seems. And yes, smaller binaries than you get *are* possible, in C++ definately (depends on compiler and linker), but also in D. I am using D for my next project. Why? Because i can. :> -eye
Nov 17 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent "Zz" <Zz Zz.com> writes:
 D is good for any project you'd consider using C or C++ for. Sometimes

 a particular existing library may dictate what language you use, but other
 than that, why?

"Digital Mars C/C++", CodeWarrior or Visual Studio, I would not use use it for any serious projects, some people I work with would not even look at it for this reason (and yes we would buy a development tool if there was one available). Zz
Nov 17 2004
prev sibling parent reply "Lynn Allan" <l_d_allan adelphia.net> writes:
"Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:cng0lv$1fmq$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 * debugging has improved, but has a ways to go


As of dmd 0.105, I find it difficult to debug char[] (aka strings) I've been using a Visual Studio 98 workaround from (I think?) "Arcane Jill" (thx ... who has been mia lately?) # char[] myVar = "Local Variable"; // Visible indirectly # // len is (int)myVar # // char is (char*)((int)(myVar >>32)) # char* p = "Pointer"; // Visible to debugger # debug char* _dbgMyVar = myVar; // Visible to debugger
 * phobos library seems more than adequate for my usage, but there


 so many ng complaints (and inferences that it will be overhauled)


 I'm reluctant to use it in depth

I use it in depth <g>.

Not having a C.S. degree, the "inner pragmatist" in me tends to be bewildered at the ng complaints ... I'm mostly quite impressed with phobos.
 * difficult for this newbie to use external C libraries because of
 linkage issues unless DMC used

Why not use DMC? DMC is a well used and popular C compiler.

Mea culpa. I haven't put the effort into gaining sufficient makefile proficiency to be able to integrate D code with "foreign" libs (e.g. mysql, sqlite, lzo, 7-zip, etc.). I admit to being an example of "a poor craftsman blames his tools -- anon?" http://www.dsource.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=380
 D is good for any project you'd consider using C or C++ for.

 a particular existing library may dictate what language you use, but

 than that, why?

<alert comment="uninformed and/or lazy whining from D zealot"> A hint ... starts with "G", ends with "I", and rhymes with gooey <g> My "niche" is small freeware gui apps that work reasonably well on obsolete "dinosaur" computers (Pentium-233 or slower, VGA resolution or laptop, slow hard drive, etc.) ... which tends to make the app simple enough for non-techies ... and fast to use. a'la "The Zen of Palm Programming" My observation is that the various D gui library projects are typically in a "broken" state due to dmd and/or phobos changes. My impression is that a project that depends on a D gui library is a "Poster Child" for being on the "Bleeding Edge". <g> For now the POC uses Win32 api calls for the "advanced" treeview and listview widgets. Granted, if this stuff was easy, I suppose it wouldn't pay so well. <g> </alert>
Nov 18 2004
next sibling parent reply J C Calvarese <jcc7 cox.net> writes:
Lynn Allan wrote:
 "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
 news:cng0lv$1fmq$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 
* phobos library seems more than adequate for my usage, but there


are
so many ng complaints (and inferences that it will be overhauled)


that
I'm reluctant to use it in depth

I use it in depth <g>.

Not having a C.S. degree, the "inner pragmatist" in me tends to be bewildered at the ng complaints ... I'm mostly quite impressed with phobos.

I took a C.S. class once. Does that buy me any credibility? :) I think Phobos is good. I just think there needs to be more in it (which will likely improve over time). We have to start somewhere, so I don't mean to whine about Phobos's completeness. I think a lot of the complaints about Phobos are based on issues of style and opinion. If you had 10 different people design a standard library, you'd get 10 different results. Phobos's critics are the 9 other people. ;) -- Justin (a/k/a jcc7) http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/
Nov 18 2004
parent "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"J C Calvarese" <jcc7 cox.net> wrote in message
news:cnjocm$t1r$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 I think Phobos is good.  I just think there needs to be more in it
 (which will likely improve over time). We have to start somewhere, so I
 don't mean to whine about Phobos's completeness.

Lots of people have written various parts for Phobos. If you find that you need a module xyz for a project, and it would be of general value, by all means!
Nov 18 2004
prev sibling parent reply "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Lynn Allan" <l_d_allan adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:cnjfds$h6s$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
 news:cng0lv$1fmq$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 * debugging has improved, but has a ways to go


As of dmd 0.105, I find it difficult to debug char[] (aka strings) I've been using a Visual Studio 98 workaround from (I think?) "Arcane Jill" (thx ... who has been mia lately?) # char[] myVar = "Local Variable"; // Visible indirectly # // len is (int)myVar # // char is (char*)((int)(myVar >>32)) # char* p = "Pointer"; // Visible to debugger # debug char* _dbgMyVar = myVar; // Visible to debugger

I understand the problem. I had it showing up in the debugger as a 'struct' with two fields, a length and a pointer. (This is because C debuggers have no conception of D strings!) The trouble started because the debugger assumes different calling conventions for longlongs and structs. Arrggh. I was forced to abandon that. There isn't much to be done outside of wheedling the debugger makers to support the D string type.
Nov 18 2004
next sibling parent reply "Lynn Allan" <l_d_allan adelphia.net> writes:
'D' is so good that the 'loose ends' are that much more noticeable.

Keep up the good work!
Nov 18 2004
parent "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> writes:
"Lynn Allan" <l_d_allan adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:cnk6qm$1hhe$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 'D' is so good that the 'loose ends' are that much more noticeable.

 Keep up the good work!

No worrys there, I'm very committed to this.
Nov 19 2004
prev sibling parent "Simon Buchan" <currently no.where> writes:
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:32:34 -0800, Walter <newshound digitalmars.com>  
wrote:

 "Lynn Allan" <l_d_allan adelphia.net> wrote in message
 news:cnjfds$h6s$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 "Walter" <newshound digitalmars.com> wrote in message
 news:cng0lv$1fmq$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 * debugging has improved, but has a ways to go


As of dmd 0.105, I find it difficult to debug char[] (aka strings) I've been using a Visual Studio 98 workaround from (I think?) "Arcane Jill" (thx ... who has been mia lately?) # char[] myVar = "Local Variable"; // Visible indirectly # // len is (int)myVar # // char is (char*)((int)(myVar >>32)) # char* p = "Pointer"; // Visible to debugger # debug char* _dbgMyVar = myVar; // Visible to debugger

I understand the problem. I had it showing up in the debugger as a 'struct' with two fields, a length and a pointer. (This is because C debuggers have no conception of D strings!) The trouble started because the debugger assumes different calling conventions for longlongs and structs. Arrggh. I was forced to abandon that. There isn't much to be done outside of wheedling the debugger makers to support the D string type.

Since I'm using windbg (as you command :D) I managed to get some help out of *(char**)(( ebp - 0x8) + 0x4) as a watch. Is it going to be possible to get .pdb files for poor old confused windows? ;) (or is it already?) I dont know much about calling conventions, though. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Nov 19 2004
prev sibling parent reply clayasaurus <clayasaurus gmail.com> writes:
D has been usuable for me for quite some time, all the new releases are 
just bug fixes. The more people who use it now, the more bug fixes 
before 1.0.

It is a hobby language for me and I've been too busy in college to work 
on my hobby.

I'm sure next summer will be a great summer for D though : )

Keep up the good work on D Walter, and make sure to call the press when 
1.0 hits the shelves!


Benji Smith wrote:
 I used to be more actively involved in the newsgroup here. But work,
 freelancing, family, and friends have become bigger time-commitments
 over the last year, so I haven't been contributing much, mostly
 because I haven't had much time to tinker with programming in D.
 
 But I'm still lurking. At least once a week, I check in here and skim
 through the new posts to the NG. I always have my eye out for when
 Walter posts that message about the release of the 1.0 compiler.
 
 And at that point--when I'll know there's both language and compiler
 stability--I plan on getting a little bit more involved and starting
 to tinker again. There are libraries I'd like to write and contribute
 to community, but--for my own reasons--I don't want to do it until D
 reaches 1.0.
 
 Anyhow, it seems as though there are far fewer posts per day than
 there used to be in the D newsgroup. Is the original momentum of
 interest in D slowing down? Or do you think there are lots of people
 like me who are waiting in the wings for the big event, the release of
 the first major version of the compiler?
 
 When that happens, do you think interest in this language will surge
 back up again?
 
 --Benji Smith

Nov 17 2004
parent Ant <Ant_member pathlink.com> writes:
I see also a change on the user of these groups.
first we had people interested on a new language:
what is new, how it's done...
Now we will have people interested on using the
language.
I'm on the second group, just arrived too early.

Ant
Nov 17 2004