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D - Peer-reviewed library repository like Boost

reply Emile Cormier <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca> writes:
I'm a C++ programmer, and I've been keeping an eye on this new language 
since last October. I am hesistant to start any D pet projects because 
of the lack of popular libraries similar to STL and Boost. This lack is 
understandable, considering that D is still young and evolving. But we 
shouldn't wait too long to put a system in place to manage the 
developement of libraries, because things will get too dispersed and 
chaotic. I'd rather not rely on libraries developed by a single person, 
but instead on libraries that have been peer-reviewed and put through 
their paces by many people, on many systems.

I'm sure that a lot of effort is wasted because people are trying to 
implement their own libraries independently of each other. Would it be 
feasable to set up some kind of library repository web site similar to 
Boost? Here are some things I can think of that would be cool features 
of that site:

- Style guide and rules (e.g. mandatory unit tests) so that everyone 
codes their libraries in a consistent manner that is easy to understand 
by everybody.
- List of feature requests, ranked by popularity.
- Configuration management (CVS), bug tracking
- System for rationale management, where people can register design 
alternatives, and their pros and cons. This could be implemented with a 
simple newsgroup, as long as everybody uses the same convention.
- Libraries/modules would be peer-reviewed before being officially accepted.
- Anyone could contribute to the development of any library/module, as 
long as his/her work is peer-reviewed (i.e. nobody "owns" a library/module).
- Libraries/modules are designed to be as orthogonal as possible, like 
the way it is with Deimos.

I think having this kind of democratic system for building up standard 
modules and libraries would be the optimal way to approach this. Or 
maybe I'm just dreaming in colours, hehe.

If I could, I'd try to setup such a site myself, but I don't know much 
about web design other than your typical HTML and CGI in C/C++ (does 
anyone use CGI anymore?). It's too bad, since I'm currently unemployed 
and have OODLES of free time on my hands. Maybe I should start learning 
these dozens of new web design technologies... yech! :-)

Emile Cormier
Mar 16 2004
next sibling parent reply J C Calvarese <jcc7 cox.net> writes:
Emile Cormier wrote:
 I'm a C++ programmer, and I've been keeping an eye on this new language 
 since last October. I am hesistant to start any D pet projects because 
 of the lack of popular libraries similar to STL and Boost. This lack is 
 understandable, considering that D is still young and evolving. But we 
 shouldn't wait too long to put a system in place to manage the 
 developement of libraries, because things will get too dispersed and 
 chaotic. I'd rather not rely on libraries developed by a single person, 
 but instead on libraries that have been peer-reviewed and put through 
 their paces by many people, on many systems.

You're right that most of the projects thus far have been one-person operations. I suspect that's largely do to the newness of D. I feel like I need to work on D stuff by myself first, so that I can actually learn D. At least we have Wiki4D where we can add our own links: http://www.wikiservice.at/d/wiki.cgi?AllLibraries. Similar ideas regarding community repositories have been posed in the past, most recently by Brad Anderson (D/24165). I think it's a great idea.
 I'm sure that a lot of effort is wasted because people are trying to 
 implement their own libraries independently of each other. Would it be 
 feasable to set up some kind of library repository web site similar to 
 Boost? Here are some things I can think of that would be cool features 
 of that site:

There is some duplication of effort, but hopefully the better libraries will win out in the long run. "Survival of the fittest" is the goal.
 - Style guide and rules (e.g. mandatory unit tests) so that everyone 
 codes their libraries in a consistent manner that is easy to understand 
 by everybody.
 - List of feature requests, ranked by popularity.
 - Configuration management (CVS), bug tracking
 - System for rationale management, where people can register design 
 alternatives, and their pros and cons. This could be implemented with a 
 simple newsgroup, as long as everybody uses the same convention.
 - Libraries/modules would be peer-reviewed before being officially 
 accepted.
 - Anyone could contribute to the development of any library/module, as 
 long as his/her work is peer-reviewed (i.e. nobody "owns" a 
 library/module).
 - Libraries/modules are designed to be as orthogonal as possible, like 
 the way it is with Deimos.

All interesting ideas.
 
 I think having this kind of democratic system for building up standard 
 modules and libraries would be the optimal way to approach this. Or 
 maybe I'm just dreaming in colours, hehe.

D isn't exactly a democracy, but Walter will listen to reason if we all gang up on him. ;)
 If I could, I'd try to setup such a site myself, but I don't know much 
 about web design other than your typical HTML and CGI in C/C++ (does 
 anyone use CGI anymore?). It's too bad, since I'm currently unemployed 
 and have OODLES of free time on my hands. Maybe I should start learning 
 these dozens of new web design technologies... yech! :-)

I've been learning PHP and ASP recently. I prefer PHP because I find ASP to be too proprietary.
 Emile Cormier

-- Justin http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/
Mar 16 2004
parent Ilya Minkov <minkov cs.tum.edu> writes:
J C Calvarese schrieb:

 I think having this kind of democratic system for building up standard 
 modules and libraries would be the optimal way to approach this. Or 
 maybe I'm just dreaming in colours, hehe.

D isn't exactly a democracy, but Walter will listen to reason if we all gang up on him. ;)

Actually no problem. That is, the standard library isn't irreplacable. We could set up a development of a replacement standard library, and Walter may decide what gets incorporated into standard and compiler distro.
 If I could, I'd try to setup such a site myself, but I don't know much 
 about web design other than your typical HTML and CGI in C/C++ (does 
 anyone use CGI anymore?). It's too bad, since I'm currently unemployed 
 and have OODLES of free time on my hands. Maybe I should start 
 learning these dozens of new web design technologies... yech! :-)


Free time is a precious resource most of us lack. ;) If you need some design that is simple and loads fast, you can simply borrow one from here: http://www.oswd.org/ . I did some fancy design stuff a few years ago which even sized correctly and worked well in Netscape 4 (!!!!) but i'd think it's plain wrong for a serious website and i don't have time for such things any longer. If i recall correctly Benji Smith said he had *almost* setup something like a central project repository. His newsgroup e-mail is dlanguage xxagg.com
 I've been learning PHP and ASP recently. I prefer PHP because I find ASP 
 to be too proprietary.

-eye
Mar 17 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent reply "Matthew" <matthew stlsoft.org> writes:
"Emile Cormier" <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca> wrote in message
news:c38bep$2o6h$4 digitaldaemon.com...
 I'm a C++ programmer, and I've been keeping an eye on this new language
 since last October.

Where did you hear about it?
 I am hesistant to start any D pet projects because
 of the lack of popular libraries similar to STL and Boost.

I'm currently working on the DTL, and have got several basic implementations done. I expect to make more progress once Walter's back from SDWest, and we can make some changes to the compiler.
 This lack is
 understandable, considering that D is still young and evolving. But we
 shouldn't wait too long to put a system in place to manage the
 developement of libraries, because things will get too dispersed and
 chaotic. I'd rather not rely on libraries developed by a single person,
 but instead on libraries that have been peer-reviewed and put through
 their paces by many people, on many systems.

The group's still small enough that if you want to contribute something, and ask for review, you'll get enough volunteers.
 I'm sure that a lot of effort is wasted because people are trying to
 implement their own libraries independently of each other. Would it be
 feasable to set up some kind of library repository web site similar to
 Boost? Here are some things I can think of that would be cool features
 of that site:

 - Style guide and rules (e.g. mandatory unit tests) so that everyone
 codes their libraries in a consistent manner that is easy to understand
 by everybody.
 - List of feature requests, ranked by popularity.

This would be good
 - Configuration management (CVS), bug tracking
 - System for rationale management, where people can register design
 alternatives, and their pros and cons. This could be implemented with a
 simple newsgroup, as long as everybody uses the same convention.
 - Libraries/modules would be peer-reviewed before being officially

 - Anyone could contribute to the development of any library/module, as
 long as his/her work is peer-reviewed (i.e. nobody "owns" a

 - Libraries/modules are designed to be as orthogonal as possible, like
 the way it is with Deimos.

 I think having this kind of democratic system for building up standard
 modules and libraries would be the optimal way to approach this. Or
 maybe I'm just dreaming in colours, hehe.

 If I could, I'd try to setup such a site myself, but I don't know much
 about web design other than your typical HTML and CGI in C/C++ (does
 anyone use CGI anymore?). It's too bad, since I'm currently unemployed
 and have OODLES of free time on my hands. Maybe I should start learning
 these dozens of new web design technologies... yech! :-)

Looks to me like you've answered your own question.
Mar 17 2004
parent reply Emile Cormier <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca> writes:
I'm sorry for not having followed this newsgroup religiously since I 
first knew about D. Up until now, I've only been "dipping" into the 
newsgroup on occasion, mostly to find out if D will have generic 
programming features as powerful as C++. From your comments, it seems 
that a few of the questions I raised have been covered before.

Other comments embedded below.

Matthew wrote:
 "Emile Cormier" <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca> wrote in message
 news:c38bep$2o6h$4 digitaldaemon.com...
 
I'm a C++ programmer, and I've been keeping an eye on this new language
since last October.

Where did you hear about it?

I saw someone post about the D language in a game development website. I don't remember which one though.
 
I am hesistant to start any D pet projects because
of the lack of popular libraries similar to STL and Boost.

I'm currently working on the DTL, and have got several basic implementations done. I expect to make more progress once Walter's back from SDWest, and we can make some changes to the compiler.

Is this DTL a port of the STL? If so, then it would certainly help attract people from the C++ flock who are used to the STL. On the other hand, should we be copying blindly from the STL? Maybe there are some design flaws we should avoid. Then again, I don't remember noticing any flaws while studying the STL. I only remember being impressed by it's sheer elegance. :-) Maybe some STL wizards (such as you) could point out some design flaws. Maybe some design decisions behind the STL don't apply to the D language. This is why I'd like to see some kind of centralized rationale management system, so that issues like this can be examined before library interfaces are "etched into stone".
 
This lack is
understandable, considering that D is still young and evolving. But we
shouldn't wait too long to put a system in place to manage the
developement of libraries, because things will get too dispersed and
chaotic. I'd rather not rely on libraries developed by a single person,
but instead on libraries that have been peer-reviewed and put through
their paces by many people, on many systems.

The group's still small enough that if you want to contribute something, and ask for review, you'll get enough volunteers.
I'm sure that a lot of effort is wasted because people are trying to
implement their own libraries independently of each other. Would it be
feasable to set up some kind of library repository web site similar to
Boost? Here are some things I can think of that would be cool features
of that site:

- Style guide and rules (e.g. mandatory unit tests) so that everyone
codes their libraries in a consistent manner that is easy to understand
by everybody.
- List of feature requests, ranked by popularity.

This would be good
- Configuration management (CVS), bug tracking
- System for rationale management, where people can register design
alternatives, and their pros and cons. This could be implemented with a
simple newsgroup, as long as everybody uses the same convention.
- Libraries/modules would be peer-reviewed before being officially

accepted.
- Anyone could contribute to the development of any library/module, as
long as his/her work is peer-reviewed (i.e. nobody "owns" a

library/module).
- Libraries/modules are designed to be as orthogonal as possible, like
the way it is with Deimos.

I think having this kind of democratic system for building up standard
modules and libraries would be the optimal way to approach this. Or
maybe I'm just dreaming in colours, hehe.

If I could, I'd try to setup such a site myself, but I don't know much
about web design other than your typical HTML and CGI in C/C++ (does
anyone use CGI anymore?). It's too bad, since I'm currently unemployed
and have OODLES of free time on my hands. Maybe I should start learning
these dozens of new web design technologies... yech! :-)

Looks to me like you've answered your own question.

It seems that other people are already getting a repository site together, so I won't duplicate the effort by building my own from scratch. :-) What seems to be missing so far is a system for rationale management. I've done some googling, and it seems that there still isn't any specialized software available for that purpose. I'm surprised that the open source community hasn't yet used rationale management to get more people involved in the decision-making process. If Walter had such a system in place, I bet that he would find it much easier to collect ideas/suggestions from the community and weigh them in a systematic manner according to his design criteria. Decisions would then become much less gut wrenching. Maybe the best way for me to contribute is to look more into rationale management, and to perhaps start developing a system for it that is usable for large open source projects. From what I can tell by web searches, it seems that rationale management hasn't yet been adopted by the mainstream development community. For those who are interested, this subject is covered in chapter 8 of "Object Oriented Software Engineering" by Bruegge and Dutoit. I haven't found any websites that discusses the subject in a general manner, but I haven't dug too deep either.
Mar 17 2004
next sibling parent "Matthew" <matthew stlsoft.org> writes:
"Emile Cormier" <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca> wrote in message
news:c39u92$2d70$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 I'm sorry for not having followed this newsgroup religiously since I
 first knew about D. Up until now, I've only been "dipping" into the
 newsgroup on occasion, mostly to find out if D will have generic
 programming features as powerful as C++.

We don't, yet, but it is very likely that it will be superior by the end of year.
 From your comments, it seems
 that a few of the questions I raised have been covered before.

 Other comments embedded below.

 Matthew wrote:
 "Emile Cormier" <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca> wrote in message
 news:c38bep$2o6h$4 digitaldaemon.com...

I'm a C++ programmer, and I've been keeping an eye on this new language
since last October.

Where did you hear about it?

I saw someone post about the D language in a game development website. I don't remember which one though.
I am hesistant to start any D pet projects because
of the lack of popular libraries similar to STL and Boost.

I'm currently working on the DTL, and have got several basic


 done. I expect to make more progress once Walter's back from SDWest, and


 can make some changes to the compiler.

Is this DTL a port of the STL?

No, though there is some influence
 If so, then it would certainly help
 attract people from the C++ flock who are used to the STL. On the other
 hand, should we be copying blindly from the STL?

I think other people are trying to do this, but it's not the approach we're taking. It will more closely map D's notions of slices, in what I call Ranges. I have been working on the Range concept for C++ for some time with a couple of other people, some of which is featured in "Imperfect C++" (my new book, due out later this year), and many of the same aspects of the concept translate to D.
 Maybe there are some
 design flaws we should avoid. Then again, I don't remember noticing any
 flaws while studying the STL. I only remember being impressed by it's
 sheer elegance. :-) Maybe some STL wizards (such as you) could point out
 some design flaws.

Hmmm. That's a big question with a long answer. I'm taking the fifth on that, for the moment. No doubt when we release DTL 0.1 to the ng there will be vast amounts of debate on these issues then.
 Maybe some design decisions behind the STL don't
 apply to the D language.

That is my belief.
 This is why I'd like to see some kind of
 centralized rationale management system, so that issues like this can be
 examined before library interfaces are "etched into stone".

That's what the NG is for. There's nothing etched in stone yet, since we expect there to be a lot of debate before the DTL takes its final form.
This lack is
understandable, considering that D is still young and evolving. But we
shouldn't wait too long to put a system in place to manage the
developement of libraries, because things will get too dispersed and
chaotic. I'd rather not rely on libraries developed by a single person,
but instead on libraries that have been peer-reviewed and put through
their paces by many people, on many systems.

The group's still small enough that if you want to contribute something,


 ask for review, you'll get enough volunteers.


I'm sure that a lot of effort is wasted because people are trying to
implement their own libraries independently of each other. Would it be
feasable to set up some kind of library repository web site similar to
Boost? Here are some things I can think of that would be cool features
of that site:

- Style guide and rules (e.g. mandatory unit tests) so that everyone
codes their libraries in a consistent manner that is easy to understand
by everybody.
- List of feature requests, ranked by popularity.

This would be good
- Configuration management (CVS), bug tracking
- System for rationale management, where people can register design
alternatives, and their pros and cons. This could be implemented with a
simple newsgroup, as long as everybody uses the same convention.
- Libraries/modules would be peer-reviewed before being officially

accepted.
- Anyone could contribute to the development of any library/module, as
long as his/her work is peer-reviewed (i.e. nobody "owns" a

library/module).
- Libraries/modules are designed to be as orthogonal as possible, like
the way it is with Deimos.

I think having this kind of democratic system for building up standard
modules and libraries would be the optimal way to approach this. Or
maybe I'm just dreaming in colours, hehe.

If I could, I'd try to setup such a site myself, but I don't know much
about web design other than your typical HTML and CGI in C/C++ (does
anyone use CGI anymore?). It's too bad, since I'm currently unemployed
and have OODLES of free time on my hands. Maybe I should start learning
these dozens of new web design technologies... yech! :-)

Looks to me like you've answered your own question.

It seems that other people are already getting a repository site together, so I won't duplicate the effort by building my own from scratch. :-)

There's been a lot of talk, but I know of no site as yet. Maybe you should write a collaborative site to manage the efforts to make collaborative sites? :-)
 What seems to be missing so far is a system for rationale
 management. I've done some googling, and it seems that there still isn't
 any specialized software available for that purpose. I'm surprised that
 the open source community hasn't yet used rationale management to get
 more people involved in the decision-making process. If Walter had such
 a system in place, I bet that he would find it much easier to collect
 ideas/suggestions from the community and weigh them in a systematic
 manner according to his design criteria. Decisions would then become
 much less gut wrenching.

 Maybe the best way for me to contribute is to look more into rationale
 management, and to perhaps start developing a system for it that is
 usable for large open source projects. From what I can tell by web
 searches, it seems that rationale management hasn't yet been adopted by
 the mainstream development community. For those who are interested, this
   subject is covered in chapter 8 of "Object Oriented Software
 Engineering" by Bruegge and Dutoit. I haven't found any websites that
 discusses the subject in a general manner, but I haven't dug too deep
 either.

Mar 17 2004
prev sibling parent reply C <dont respond.com> writes:
 It seems that other people are already getting a repository site =

 together, so I won't duplicate the effort by building my own from =

 scratch. :-) What seems to be missing so far is a system for rationale=

 management. I've done some googling, and it seems that there still isn=

 any specialized software available for that purpose. I'm surprised tha=

 the open source community hasn't yet used rationale management to get =

 more people involved in the decision-making process. If Walter had suc=

 a system in place, I bet that he would find it much easier to collect =

 ideas/suggestions from the community and weigh them in a systematic =

 manner according to his design criteria. Decisions would then become =

 much less gut wrenching.

I dont think anyone is currently working on a repository site , or if th= ey = were its long since died. Several have been proposed but none ever got = off the ground. I truly hope you will start ( and complete! ) one, im = sure many of us will lend time if you need. I've never heard of rationa= le = management Ill have to look it up ;). C On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:27:09 -0400, Emile Cormier <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca=
 =

wrote:
 I'm sorry for not having followed this newsgroup religiously since I =

 first knew about D. Up until now, I've only been "dipping" into the =

 newsgroup on occasion, mostly to find out if D will have generic =

 programming features as powerful as C++. From your comments, it seems =

 that a few of the questions I raised have been covered before.

 Other comments embedded below.

 Matthew wrote:
 "Emile Cormier" <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca> wrote in message
 news:c38bep$2o6h$4 digitaldaemon.com...

 I'm a C++ programmer, and I've been keeping an eye on this new langu=



 since last October.

Where did you hear about it?

I saw someone post about the D language in a game development website.=

 don't remember which one though.

 I am hesistant to start any D pet projects because
 of the lack of popular libraries similar to STL and Boost.

I'm currently working on the DTL, and have got several basic =


 implementations
 done. I expect to make more progress once Walter's back from SDWest, =


 and we
 can make some changes to the compiler.

Is this DTL a port of the STL? If so, then it would certainly help =

 attract people from the C++ flock who are used to the STL. On the othe=

 hand, should we be copying blindly from the STL? Maybe there are some =

 design flaws we should avoid. Then again, I don't remember noticing an=

 flaws while studying the STL. I only remember being impressed by it's =

 sheer elegance. :-) Maybe some STL wizards (such as you) could point o=

 some design flaws. Maybe some design decisions behind the STL don't =

 apply to the D language. This is why I'd like to see some kind of =

 centralized rationale management system, so that issues like this can =

 examined before library interfaces are "etched into stone".

 This lack is
 understandable, considering that D is still young and evolving. But =



 shouldn't wait too long to put a system in place to manage the
 developement of libraries, because things will get too dispersed and=



 chaotic. I'd rather not rely on libraries developed by a single pers=



 but instead on libraries that have been peer-reviewed and put throug=



 their paces by many people, on many systems.

The group's still small enough that if you want to contribute =


 something, and
 ask for review, you'll get enough volunteers.


 I'm sure that a lot of effort is wasted because people are trying to=



 implement their own libraries independently of each other. Would it =



 feasable to set up some kind of library repository web site similar =



 Boost? Here are some things I can think of that would be cool featur=



 of that site:

 - Style guide and rules (e.g. mandatory unit tests) so that everyone=



 codes their libraries in a consistent manner that is easy to underst=



 by everybody.
 - List of feature requests, ranked by popularity.

This would be good
 - Configuration management (CVS), bug tracking
 - System for rationale management, where people can register design
 alternatives, and their pros and cons. This could be implemented wit=



 simple newsgroup, as long as everybody uses the same convention.
 - Libraries/modules would be peer-reviewed before being officially

accepted.
 - Anyone could contribute to the development of any library/module, =



 long as his/her work is peer-reviewed (i.e. nobody "owns" a

library/module).
 - Libraries/modules are designed to be as orthogonal as possible, li=



 the way it is with Deimos.

 I think having this kind of democratic system for building up standa=



 modules and libraries would be the optimal way to approach this. Or
 maybe I'm just dreaming in colours, hehe.

 If I could, I'd try to setup such a site myself, but I don't know mu=



 about web design other than your typical HTML and CGI in C/C++ (does=



 anyone use CGI anymore?). It's too bad, since I'm currently unemploy=



 and have OODLES of free time on my hands. Maybe I should start learn=



 these dozens of new web design technologies... yech! :-)

Looks to me like you've answered your own question.

It seems that other people are already getting a repository site =

 together, so I won't duplicate the effort by building my own from =

 scratch. :-) What seems to be missing so far is a system for rationale=

 management. I've done some googling, and it seems that there still isn=

 any specialized software available for that purpose. I'm surprised tha=

 the open source community hasn't yet used rationale management to get =

 more people involved in the decision-making process. If Walter had suc=

 a system in place, I bet that he would find it much easier to collect =

 ideas/suggestions from the community and weigh them in a systematic =

 manner according to his design criteria. Decisions would then become =

 much less gut wrenching.

 Maybe the best way for me to contribute is to look more into rationale=

 management, and to perhaps start developing a system for it that is =

 usable for large open source projects. From what I can tell by web =

 searches, it seems that rationale management hasn't yet been adopted b=

 the mainstream development community. For those who are interested, th=

   subject is covered in chapter 8 of "Object Oriented Software =

 Engineering" by Bruegge and Dutoit. I haven't found any websites that =

 discusses the subject in a general manner, but I haven't dug too deep =

 either.

-- = Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Mar 17 2004
parent J C Calvarese <jcc7 cox.net> writes:
C wrote:
 It seems that other people are already getting a repository site 
 together, so I won't duplicate the effort by building my own from 
 scratch. :-) What seems to be missing so far is a system for rationale 


 
 I dont think anyone is currently working on a repository site , or if 
 they were its long since died.  Several have been proposed but none ever 
 got off the ground.  I truly hope you will start ( and complete! ) one, 
 im sure many of us will lend time if you need.  I've never heard of 
 rationale management Ill have to look it up ;).

Brad Anderson's project is still active. But it is still in the initial setup phase. I think he'll open it to the public pretty soon. He's at SDWest this week, but you can try to get more information from him when he comes back. I'm helping him a little, so I can tell you some about the progress. The phpBB forums are up and running. I haven't tried it out myself, but Subversion is apparently working as expected for source code control. The tutorial portion of his project is kind of sketchy, but that's my fault. I've been working on some stuff in PHP to display example code. Nothing too fancy since I'm a PHP novice.
 
 C

-- Justin http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/
Mar 17 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent reply Emile Cormier <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca> writes:
I have found a freely downloadable groupware tool called Compendium for 
mapping discussions in a manner that would allow rationale management:

http://compendiuminstitute.org

Users can collaborate over the Internet via a Java interface if they 
have the Compendium client. It is not possible for users to collaborate 
via a web interface, but it is possible to generate an HTML file with a 
the discussion on it. However, they plan to release Compendium as open 
source in a few months, so it might be possible to create some kind of 
web interface for it.

If any of you are well-endowed in the arcane knowledge of law, could you 
check out the licence agreement to see if there would be a problem for 
us using it for an open source project?

http://www.compendiuminstitute.org/download/license.htm



Emile Cormier wrote:
 I'm a C++ programmer, and I've been keeping an eye on this new language 
 since last October. I am hesistant to start any D pet projects because 
 of the lack of popular libraries similar to STL and Boost. This lack is 
 understandable, considering that D is still young and evolving. But we 
 shouldn't wait too long to put a system in place to manage the 
 developement of libraries, because things will get too dispersed and 
 chaotic. I'd rather not rely on libraries developed by a single person, 
 but instead on libraries that have been peer-reviewed and put through 
 their paces by many people, on many systems.
 
 I'm sure that a lot of effort is wasted because people are trying to 
 implement their own libraries independently of each other. Would it be 
 feasable to set up some kind of library repository web site similar to 
 Boost? Here are some things I can think of that would be cool features 
 of that site:
 
 - Style guide and rules (e.g. mandatory unit tests) so that everyone 
 codes their libraries in a consistent manner that is easy to understand 
 by everybody.
 - List of feature requests, ranked by popularity.
 - Configuration management (CVS), bug tracking
 - System for rationale management, where people can register design 
 alternatives, and their pros and cons. This could be implemented with a 
 simple newsgroup, as long as everybody uses the same convention.
 - Libraries/modules would be peer-reviewed before being officially 
 accepted.
 - Anyone could contribute to the development of any library/module, as 
 long as his/her work is peer-reviewed (i.e. nobody "owns" a 
 library/module).
 - Libraries/modules are designed to be as orthogonal as possible, like 
 the way it is with Deimos.
 
 I think having this kind of democratic system for building up standard 
 modules and libraries would be the optimal way to approach this. Or 
 maybe I'm just dreaming in colours, hehe.
 
 If I could, I'd try to setup such a site myself, but I don't know much 
 about web design other than your typical HTML and CGI in C/C++ (does 
 anyone use CGI anymore?). It's too bad, since I'm currently unemployed 
 and have OODLES of free time on my hands. Maybe I should start learning 
 these dozens of new web design technologies... yech! :-)
 
 Emile Cormier

Mar 17 2004
next sibling parent reply "Matthew" <matthew stlsoft.org> writes:
Java? Java!?

Seriously, if it's not web-based, it's not going to fly. ;/


"Emile Cormier" <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca> wrote in message
news:c3a5ai$2qnn$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 I have found a freely downloadable groupware tool called Compendium for
 mapping discussions in a manner that would allow rationale management:

 http://compendiuminstitute.org

 Users can collaborate over the Internet via a Java interface if they
 have the Compendium client. It is not possible for users to collaborate
 via a web interface, but it is possible to generate an HTML file with a
 the discussion on it. However, they plan to release Compendium as open
 source in a few months, so it might be possible to create some kind of
 web interface for it.

 If any of you are well-endowed in the arcane knowledge of law, could you
 check out the licence agreement to see if there would be a problem for
 us using it for an open source project?

 http://www.compendiuminstitute.org/download/license.htm



 Emile Cormier wrote:
 I'm a C++ programmer, and I've been keeping an eye on this new language
 since last October. I am hesistant to start any D pet projects because
 of the lack of popular libraries similar to STL and Boost. This lack is
 understandable, considering that D is still young and evolving. But we
 shouldn't wait too long to put a system in place to manage the
 developement of libraries, because things will get too dispersed and
 chaotic. I'd rather not rely on libraries developed by a single person,
 but instead on libraries that have been peer-reviewed and put through
 their paces by many people, on many systems.

 I'm sure that a lot of effort is wasted because people are trying to
 implement their own libraries independently of each other. Would it be
 feasable to set up some kind of library repository web site similar to
 Boost? Here are some things I can think of that would be cool features
 of that site:

 - Style guide and rules (e.g. mandatory unit tests) so that everyone
 codes their libraries in a consistent manner that is easy to understand
 by everybody.
 - List of feature requests, ranked by popularity.
 - Configuration management (CVS), bug tracking
 - System for rationale management, where people can register design
 alternatives, and their pros and cons. This could be implemented with a
 simple newsgroup, as long as everybody uses the same convention.
 - Libraries/modules would be peer-reviewed before being officially
 accepted.
 - Anyone could contribute to the development of any library/module, as
 long as his/her work is peer-reviewed (i.e. nobody "owns" a
 library/module).
 - Libraries/modules are designed to be as orthogonal as possible, like
 the way it is with Deimos.

 I think having this kind of democratic system for building up standard
 modules and libraries would be the optimal way to approach this. Or
 maybe I'm just dreaming in colours, hehe.

 If I could, I'd try to setup such a site myself, but I don't know much
 about web design other than your typical HTML and CGI in C/C++ (does
 anyone use CGI anymore?). It's too bad, since I'm currently unemployed
 and have OODLES of free time on my hands. Maybe I should start learning
 these dozens of new web design technologies... yech! :-)

 Emile Cormier


Mar 17 2004
next sibling parent Robert Rouse <webmaster deksesuma.com> writes:
I would donate webspace and bandwidth to this cause.

I own Deksesuma.com, a soon to be shareware game and application 
project. I get 1.5 gig of space and 150 gig bandwidth. That should be 
plenty alone for a while. I don't think my site alone would use that 
much in a month.

If you want, contact me at this address (webmaster deksesuma.com) and 
I'll set you up with a ftp account to upload content.

I also do some PHP, so I could help out with that also :).




Matthew wrote:
 Java? Java!?
 
 Seriously, if it's not web-based, it's not going to fly. ;/
 
 
 "Emile Cormier" <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca> wrote in message
 news:c3a5ai$2qnn$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 
I have found a freely downloadable groupware tool called Compendium for
mapping discussions in a manner that would allow rationale management:

http://compendiuminstitute.org

Users can collaborate over the Internet via a Java interface if they
have the Compendium client. It is not possible for users to collaborate
via a web interface, but it is possible to generate an HTML file with a
the discussion on it. However, they plan to release Compendium as open
source in a few months, so it might be possible to create some kind of
web interface for it.

If any of you are well-endowed in the arcane knowledge of law, could you
check out the licence agreement to see if there would be a problem for
us using it for an open source project?

http://www.compendiuminstitute.org/download/license.htm



Emile Cormier wrote:

I'm a C++ programmer, and I've been keeping an eye on this new language
since last October. I am hesistant to start any D pet projects because
of the lack of popular libraries similar to STL and Boost. This lack is
understandable, considering that D is still young and evolving. But we
shouldn't wait too long to put a system in place to manage the
developement of libraries, because things will get too dispersed and
chaotic. I'd rather not rely on libraries developed by a single person,
but instead on libraries that have been peer-reviewed and put through
their paces by many people, on many systems.

I'm sure that a lot of effort is wasted because people are trying to
implement their own libraries independently of each other. Would it be
feasable to set up some kind of library repository web site similar to
Boost? Here are some things I can think of that would be cool features
of that site:

- Style guide and rules (e.g. mandatory unit tests) so that everyone
codes their libraries in a consistent manner that is easy to understand
by everybody.
- List of feature requests, ranked by popularity.
- Configuration management (CVS), bug tracking
- System for rationale management, where people can register design
alternatives, and their pros and cons. This could be implemented with a
simple newsgroup, as long as everybody uses the same convention.
- Libraries/modules would be peer-reviewed before being officially
accepted.
- Anyone could contribute to the development of any library/module, as
long as his/her work is peer-reviewed (i.e. nobody "owns" a
library/module).
- Libraries/modules are designed to be as orthogonal as possible, like
the way it is with Deimos.

I think having this kind of democratic system for building up standard
modules and libraries would be the optimal way to approach this. Or
maybe I'm just dreaming in colours, hehe.

If I could, I'd try to setup such a site myself, but I don't know much
about web design other than your typical HTML and CGI in C/C++ (does
anyone use CGI anymore?). It's too bad, since I'm currently unemployed
and have OODLES of free time on my hands. Maybe I should start learning
these dozens of new web design technologies... yech! :-)

Emile Cormier



Mar 17 2004
prev sibling parent Emile Cormier <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca> writes:
Java, yeah, I know. This program interacts with a MySQL server and there 
seems to be some kind of integration possible using XML. It might be 
possible to customize it somehow so that there is a web interface 
available. I'll research this further and keep this newsgroup posted. 
This program has apparently been based on like 15 years of research that 
was funded by grants, so it would be a waste to not take advantage of it 
somehow.

Matthew wrote:
 Java? Java!?
 
 Seriously, if it's not web-based, it's not going to fly. ;/
 
 
 "Emile Cormier" <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca> wrote in message
 news:c3a5ai$2qnn$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 
I have found a freely downloadable groupware tool called Compendium for
mapping discussions in a manner that would allow rationale management:

http://compendiuminstitute.org

Users can collaborate over the Internet via a Java interface if they
have the Compendium client. It is not possible for users to collaborate
via a web interface, but it is possible to generate an HTML file with a
the discussion on it. However, they plan to release Compendium as open
source in a few months, so it might be possible to create some kind of
web interface for it.

If any of you are well-endowed in the arcane knowledge of law, could you
check out the licence agreement to see if there would be a problem for
us using it for an open source project?

http://www.compendiuminstitute.org/download/license.htm



Emile Cormier wrote:

I'm a C++ programmer, and I've been keeping an eye on this new language
since last October. I am hesistant to start any D pet projects because
of the lack of popular libraries similar to STL and Boost. This lack is
understandable, considering that D is still young and evolving. But we
shouldn't wait too long to put a system in place to manage the
developement of libraries, because things will get too dispersed and
chaotic. I'd rather not rely on libraries developed by a single person,
but instead on libraries that have been peer-reviewed and put through
their paces by many people, on many systems.

I'm sure that a lot of effort is wasted because people are trying to
implement their own libraries independently of each other. Would it be
feasable to set up some kind of library repository web site similar to
Boost? Here are some things I can think of that would be cool features
of that site:

- Style guide and rules (e.g. mandatory unit tests) so that everyone
codes their libraries in a consistent manner that is easy to understand
by everybody.
- List of feature requests, ranked by popularity.
- Configuration management (CVS), bug tracking
- System for rationale management, where people can register design
alternatives, and their pros and cons. This could be implemented with a
simple newsgroup, as long as everybody uses the same convention.
- Libraries/modules would be peer-reviewed before being officially
accepted.
- Anyone could contribute to the development of any library/module, as
long as his/her work is peer-reviewed (i.e. nobody "owns" a
library/module).
- Libraries/modules are designed to be as orthogonal as possible, like
the way it is with Deimos.

I think having this kind of democratic system for building up standard
modules and libraries would be the optimal way to approach this. Or
maybe I'm just dreaming in colours, hehe.

If I could, I'd try to setup such a site myself, but I don't know much
about web design other than your typical HTML and CGI in C/C++ (does
anyone use CGI anymore?). It's too bad, since I'm currently unemployed
and have OODLES of free time on my hands. Maybe I should start learning
these dozens of new web design technologies... yech! :-)

Emile Cormier



Mar 17 2004
prev sibling parent reply "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Robert_M._M=FCnch?=" <robert.muench robertmuench.de> writes:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:27:25 -0400, Emile Cormier <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca>  
wrote:

 I have found a freely downloadable groupware tool called Compendium for  
 mapping discussions in a manner that would allow rationale management:

 http://compendiuminstitute.org
 ...

Hi, I could donate some collaboration tool, space and bandwidth. Information about the tool can be found at http://www.xpeers.net It's a tool that has simple version control included and is based on a P2P concept. So everyone can work offline as well, because you get a copy of all files. The clientsize is 600KB. I'm using it for all kind of development stuff and it works great. Let me know who is interested and I'm going to issue an account. -- Robert M. Münch Management & IT Freelancer http://www.robertmuench.de
Mar 18 2004
next sibling parent "Matthew" <matthew stlsoft.org> writes:
I'm interested.

"Robert M. Münch" <robert.muench robertmuench.de> wrote in message
news:opr42df7ikheztw6 news.digitalmars.com...
 On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:27:25 -0400, Emile Cormier <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca>
 wrote:

 I have found a freely downloadable groupware tool called Compendium for
 mapping discussions in a manner that would allow rationale management:

 http://compendiuminstitute.org
 ...

Hi, I could donate some collaboration tool, space and bandwidth. Information about the tool can be found at http://www.xpeers.net It's a tool that has simple version control included and is based on a P2P concept. So everyone can work offline as well, because you get a copy of all files. The clientsize is 600KB. I'm using it for all kind of development stuff and it works great. Let me know who is interested and I'm going to issue an account. -- Robert M. Münch Management & IT Freelancer http://www.robertmuench.de

Mar 18 2004
prev sibling parent resistor mac.com writes:
I'd at least like to follow the development.  I come from a background of
languages without generics (ObjC and pre-1.5 Java), so I'd really like the
opportunity to improve my understanding of them by follow and perhaps helping
the development of this.

Owen

In article <opr42df7ikheztw6 news.digitalmars.com>,
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Robert_M._M=FCnch?= says...
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:27:25 -0400, Emile Cormier <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca>  
wrote:

 I have found a freely downloadable groupware tool called Compendium for  
 mapping discussions in a manner that would allow rationale management:

 http://compendiuminstitute.org
 ...

Hi, I could donate some collaboration tool, space and bandwidth. Information about the tool can be found at http://www.xpeers.net It's a tool that has simple version control included and is based on a P2P concept. So everyone can work offline as well, because you get a copy of all files. The clientsize is 600KB. I'm using it for all kind of development stuff and it works great. Let me know who is interested and I'm going to issue an account. -- Robert M. Münch Management & IT Freelancer http://www.robertmuench.de

Mar 18 2004
prev sibling parent reply =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sigbj=F8rn_Lund_Olsen?= <sigbjorn lundolsen.net> writes:
Emile Cormier wrote:

 If I could, I'd try to setup such a site myself, but I don't know much 
 about web design other than your typical HTML and CGI in C/C++ (does 
 anyone use CGI anymore?). It's too bad, since I'm currently unemployed 
 and have OODLES of free time on my hands. Maybe I should start learning 
 these dozens of new web design technologies... yech! :-)

All these 'new web design technologies' are CGI. These days a *lot* of people use CGI, much more so than earlier on. CGI is the 'Common Gateway Interface', that is, it's a standard format for data transmission from a client browser to a server-side script or program. PHP, ASP, Perl, Coldfusion etc can all use the CGI to receive data from the client, just like a C/C++ program would, or for that matter a D program would. Cheers, Sigbjørn Lund Olsen
Mar 20 2004
parent reply C <dont respond.com> writes:
Im not that familiar with it, but PHP doesn't use the same method as =

'traditional' cgi.  Typical apache style cgi requires cgi scripts to =

reside in a designated directory, where PHP does not, just parses and =

interprets on page load( requiring PHP to be compiled in to apache) .  =

This is probably still CGI in the general sense but maybe thats what she=
 =

was refering to ?

C

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 18:59:48 +0100, Sigbj=F8rn Lund Olsen =

<sigbjorn lundolsen.net> wrote:

 Emile Cormier wrote:

 If I could, I'd try to setup such a site myself, but I don't know muc=


 about web design other than your typical HTML and CGI in C/C++ (does =


 anyone use CGI anymore?). It's too bad, since I'm currently unemploye=


 and have OODLES of free time on my hands. Maybe I should start learni=


 these dozens of new web design technologies... yech! :-)

All these 'new web design technologies' are CGI. These days a *lot* of=

 people use CGI, much more so than earlier on. CGI is the 'Common Gatew=

 Interface', that is, it's a standard format for data transmission from=

 client browser to a server-side script or program.

 PHP, ASP, Perl, Coldfusion etc can all use the CGI to receive data fro=

 the client, just like a C/C++ program would, or for that matter a D =

 program would.

 Cheers,
 Sigbj=F8rn Lund Olsen

-- = D Newsgroup.
Mar 20 2004
next sibling parent C <dont respond.com> writes:
Err sorry he/she , my american bias read that as 'emily'.

C



On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 13:54:59 -0800, C <dont respond.com> wrote:

 Im not that familiar with it, but PHP doesn't use the same method as =

 'traditional' cgi.  Typical apache style cgi requires cgi scripts to =

 reside in a designated directory, where PHP does not, just parses and =

 interprets on page load( requiring PHP to be compiled in to apache) . =

 This is probably still CGI in the general sense but maybe thats what s=

 was refering to ?

 C

 On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 18:59:48 +0100, Sigbj=F8rn Lund Olsen =

 <sigbjorn lundolsen.net> wrote:

 Emile Cormier wrote:

 If I could, I'd try to setup such a site myself, but I don't know mu=



 about web design other than your typical HTML and CGI in C/C++ (does=



 anyone use CGI anymore?). It's too bad, since I'm currently unemploy=



 and have OODLES of free time on my hands. Maybe I should start =



 learning these dozens of new web design technologies... yech! :-)

All these 'new web design technologies' are CGI. These days a *lot* o=


 people use CGI, much more so than earlier on. CGI is the 'Common =


 Gateway Interface', that is, it's a standard format for data =


 transmission from a client browser to a server-side script or program=


 PHP, ASP, Perl, Coldfusion etc can all use the CGI to receive data fr=


 the client, just like a C/C++ program would, or for that matter a D =


 program would.

 Cheers,
 Sigbj=F8rn Lund Olsen


-- = D Newsgroup.
Mar 20 2004
prev sibling next sibling parent reply John Reimer <jjreimer telus.net> writes:
C wrote:
 Im not that familiar with it, but PHP doesn't use the same method as 
 'traditional' cgi.  Typical apache style cgi requires cgi scripts to 
 reside in a designated directory, where PHP does not, just parses and 
 interprets on page load( requiring PHP to be compiled in to apache) .  
 This is probably still CGI in the general sense but maybe thats what she 
 was refering to ?
 

Ummm... Emile is a male name (French), I think. I'd be careful who you call a she! (though I could be mistaken). :-)
Mar 20 2004
parent C <dont respond.com> writes:
Hehe yep, ( maybe wishful thinking on my part :0 ).

Sorry!

C

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 13:11:25 -0800, John Reimer <jjreimer telus.net> wro=
te:

 C wrote:
 Im not that familiar with it, but PHP doesn't use the same method as =


 'traditional' cgi.  Typical apache style cgi requires cgi scripts to =


 reside in a designated directory, where PHP does not, just parses and=


 interprets on page load( requiring PHP to be compiled in to apache) .=


 This is probably still CGI in the general sense but maybe thats what =


 she was refering to ?

Ummm... Emile is a male name (French), I think. I'd be careful who yo=

 call a she! (though I could be mistaken).

 :-)

-- = D Newsgroup.
Mar 20 2004
prev sibling parent reply =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Sigbj=F8rn_Lund_Olsen?= <sigbjorn lundolsen.net> writes:
C wrote:

 Im not that familiar with it, but PHP doesn't use the same method as 
 'traditional' cgi.  Typical apache style cgi requires cgi scripts to 
 reside in a designated directory, where PHP does not, just parses and 
 interprets on page load( requiring PHP to be compiled in to apache) .  
 This is probably still CGI in the general sense but maybe thats what she 
 was refering to ?

The 'new' technologies, ie Apache modules, ISAPI, NSAPI etc, all deal with adding functionality to a web server. In the case of PHP you can run it either as a CGI executable, in which case the PHP scripts would be handled exactly like a traditional CGI script would. This would require them to be world executable, which is why traditionally there used to be a separate cgi-bin. The cgi-bin is however not a requirement, you could install a CGI script/executable anywhere really. CGI is a standard that deals with the transfer of data from a client to a server. That is, it's the standard that defines what happens with the data that's been sent in a HTML form or suchnot. CGI states that its to be put into environment variables which the CGI application can then read. With the newer 'module' solutions with dynamic web content served from webpages, I would imagine that the data is not put into environment variables, so I guess you could be right in saying it's not CGI anymore. In the case of PHP though, from the viewpoint of the script, it sees everything as if it were passed through environment variables. You don't have to compile PHP into Apache, Apache loads it dynamically. Cheers, Sigbjørn Lund Olsen
Mar 21 2004
parent reply Emile Cormier <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca> writes:
I've been looking into this CGI vs PHP thing lately, and I appreciate 
your explanations. I've decided that Compendium would not be suitable 
for mass rationale management for a large open source project. I'm 
thinking about writing my own system that'll be web-based. From what 
I've studied so far, it seems that using PHP would be the best approach.

I'm going to move away for a new job, so my oodles of free time have 
suddenly disappeard. Hopefully I could get the ball rolling on this idea 
and other people can help me implement it.

BTW, it's "he". :-) It's French (I'm Canadian, not French), and it's 
pronounced "eh-meal".

Sigbjørn Lund Olsen wrote:
 C wrote:
 
 Im not that familiar with it, but PHP doesn't use the same method as 
 'traditional' cgi.  Typical apache style cgi requires cgi scripts to 
 reside in a designated directory, where PHP does not, just parses and 
 interprets on page load( requiring PHP to be compiled in to apache) .  
 This is probably still CGI in the general sense but maybe thats what 
 she was refering to ?

The 'new' technologies, ie Apache modules, ISAPI, NSAPI etc, all deal with adding functionality to a web server. In the case of PHP you can run it either as a CGI executable, in which case the PHP scripts would be handled exactly like a traditional CGI script would. This would require them to be world executable, which is why traditionally there used to be a separate cgi-bin. The cgi-bin is however not a requirement, you could install a CGI script/executable anywhere really. CGI is a standard that deals with the transfer of data from a client to a server. That is, it's the standard that defines what happens with the data that's been sent in a HTML form or suchnot. CGI states that its to be put into environment variables which the CGI application can then read. With the newer 'module' solutions with dynamic web content served from webpages, I would imagine that the data is not put into environment variables, so I guess you could be right in saying it's not CGI anymore. In the case of PHP though, from the viewpoint of the script, it sees everything as if it were passed through environment variables. You don't have to compile PHP into Apache, Apache loads it dynamically. Cheers, Sigbjørn Lund Olsen

Mar 22 2004
parent reply =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Sigbj=F8rn_Lund_Olsen?= <sigbjorn lundolsen.net> writes:
Emile Cormier wrote:
 I've been looking into this CGI vs PHP thing lately, and I appreciate 
 your explanations. I've decided that Compendium would not be suitable 
 for mass rationale management for a large open source project. I'm 
 thinking about writing my own system that'll be web-based. From what 
 I've studied so far, it seems that using PHP would be the best approach.
 
 I'm going to move away for a new job, so my oodles of free time have 
 suddenly disappeard. Hopefully I could get the ball rolling on this idea 
 and other people can help me implement it.
 
 BTW, it's "he". :-) It's French (I'm Canadian, not French), and it's 
 pronounced "eh-meal".

Scandinavian 'Emil' is also male, actually. You might want to look into existing solutions such as sourceforge.org and tigris.org. There are some others too. Cheers, Sigbjørn Lund Olsen
Mar 23 2004
parent Emile Cormier <ecorm nbnet-dot-nb.ca> writes:
Sourceforge has alot of nice features for developing open source 
projects, but it lacks a tool to do proper rationale management. Its 
MySQL support seems very interesting for someone who would like to 
implement a rationale management system using PHP scripts. I'll have to 
check out tigris.org, never heard of that one.

Sigbjørn Lund Olsen wrote:
 Emile Cormier wrote:
 
 I've been looking into this CGI vs PHP thing lately, and I appreciate 
 your explanations. I've decided that Compendium would not be suitable 
 for mass rationale management for a large open source project. I'm 
 thinking about writing my own system that'll be web-based. From what 
 I've studied so far, it seems that using PHP would be the best approach.

 I'm going to move away for a new job, so my oodles of free time have 
 suddenly disappeard. Hopefully I could get the ball rolling on this 
 idea and other people can help me implement it.

 BTW, it's "he". :-) It's French (I'm Canadian, not French), and it's 
 pronounced "eh-meal".

Scandinavian 'Emil' is also male, actually. You might want to look into existing solutions such as sourceforge.org and tigris.org. There are some others too. Cheers, Sigbjørn Lund Olsen

Mar 25 2004