Digital Mars - D - D wish list for 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Matthew" <matthew.hat stlsoft.dot.org> writes:

"Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bsvo4b$2ilg$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 I really only have 1

 1) That the D language version 1.0 is finalized and released in 2004. The


 of opportunity closes a little each year for getting a new language off


 ground and adopted by a decent sized developer community so it doesn't die


 premature death.  I can't use it at work unless it becomes popular.


I for one will be very surprised if that does not happen

Dec 31 2003

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bsvo4b$2ilg$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 I really only have 1

 1) That the D language version 1.0 is finalized and released in 2004. The


 of opportunity closes a little each year for getting a new language off


 ground and adopted by a decent sized developer community so it doesn't die


 premature death.  I can't use it at work unless it becomes popular.


I think it's pretty close. I'm finishing up what I hope will be the last bit
of new features, and then it'll be bug fixing. D 1.0 will probably be the
most powerful 1.0 language ever released!

Jan 01 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Marco A <Marco_member pathlink.com> writes:

Would people be interested in creating a comp.lang.d usenet group to
approximately correspond with the 1.0 release?

The process is a little involved, so I won't do it unless a majority of people
here are in support and will in turn vote for it on the usenet. This potenially
would allow a larger audience and make things easier to seach for. The down-side
is group spam. I was thinking that the general D language could be discussed in
comp.lang.d and DMD compiler issues would remain in this group.

http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html

Marco


In article <bt0vff$17ev$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...
"Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bsvo4b$2ilg$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 I really only have 1

 1) That the D language version 1.0 is finalized and released in 2004. The


 of opportunity closes a little each year for getting a new language off


 ground and adopted by a decent sized developer community so it doesn't die


 premature death.  I can't use it at work unless it becomes popular.


I think it's pretty close. I'm finishing up what I hope will be the last bit
of new features, and then it'll be bug fixing. D 1.0 will probably be the
most powerful 1.0 language ever released!

Jan 06 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

I'll vote for it!

"Marco A" <Marco_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:btfkfk$2bs2$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Would people be interested in creating a comp.lang.d usenet group to
 approximately correspond with the 1.0 release?

 The process is a little involved, so I won't do it unless a majority of


 here are in support and will in turn vote for it on the usenet. This


 would allow a larger audience and make things easier to seach for. The


 is group spam. I was thinking that the general D language could be


 comp.lang.d and DMD compiler issues would remain in this group.

 http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html

 Marco


 In article <bt0vff$17ev$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...
"Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bsvo4b$2ilg$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 I really only have 1

 1) That the D language version 1.0 is finalized and released in 2004.






window
 of opportunity closes a little each year for getting a new language off


 ground and adopted by a decent sized developer community so it doesn't






a
 premature death.  I can't use it at work unless it becomes popular.


I think it's pretty close. I'm finishing up what I hope will be the last




of new features, and then it'll be bug fixing. D 1.0 will probably be the
most powerful 1.0 language ever released!

Jan 06 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "KTC" <me here.com> writes:

"Marco A" wrote...
 Would people be interested in creating a comp.lang.d usenet group to
 approximately correspond with the 1.0 release?

 The process is a little involved, so I won't do it unless a majority


 here are in support and will in turn vote for it on the usenet. This


 would allow a larger audience and make things easier to seach for.


 is group spam. I was thinking that the general D language could be


 comp.lang.d and DMD compiler issues would remain in this group.

 http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html


Sure. It'll increase visibility and subsequently more user and etc
etc...

But as you obviously know, don't bother unless you're sure we can get
enough votes for it. That will probably required all the people here
willing (and actually do when the time comes) to vote yes for it plus
possibly some more....

KTC
-- 
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
    - Heinrich Heine

Jan 07 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Georg Wrede <Georg_member pathlink.com> writes:

In article <bthf50$25e3$1 digitaldaemon.com>, KTC says...
"Marco A" wrote...
 Would people be interested in creating a comp.lang.d usenet group to
 approximately correspond with the 1.0 release?


But as you obviously know, don't bother unless you're sure we can get
enough votes for it. That will probably required all the people here
willing (and actually do when the time comes) to vote yes for it plus
possibly some more....


I think this would also reduce clutter here, move some of the newbie
questions out of here, give more credibility to the language, etc.

I'm pretty sure everyone here would vote for the newsgroup! Just tell
us when and where to vote, when it's time!

BTW, how many votes does one need nowadays?

Jan 07 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Matthew" <matthew.hat stlsoft.dot.org> writes:

I say go for it, as long as Walter does not have any objections.

It'd be nice if we could get comp.lang.d, D 1.0, and one or two other things
(a journal, perhaps) all going before the middle of the year.

"Georg Wrede" <Georg_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bti17o$1bo$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 In article <bthf50$25e3$1 digitaldaemon.com>, KTC says...
"Marco A" wrote...
 Would people be interested in creating a comp.lang.d usenet group to
 approximately correspond with the 1.0 release?


But as you obviously know, don't bother unless you're sure we can get
enough votes for it. That will probably required all the people here
willing (and actually do when the time comes) to vote yes for it plus
possibly some more....


 I think this would also reduce clutter here, move some of the newbie
 questions out of here, give more credibility to the language, etc.

 I'm pretty sure everyone here would vote for the newsgroup! Just tell
 us when and where to vote, when it's time!

 BTW, how many votes does one need nowadays?

Jan 07 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Damon Gray <dontbotherasking go.away.mr.bad.spammer.net> writes:

Good idea!

I would definitely vote for it if I could. What is also nice about 
getting it into "The big eight" is that it will be indexed and 
searchable via "groups.google.com". This will make the spam problem 
negligible because results will be searched for not browsed. I would 
start the process as soon as possible. If it doesn't work out digtalmars 
can put there news server into the larger usenet feed and then it can be 
added into google.

Marco A wrote:
 Would people be interested in creating a comp.lang.d usenet group to
 approximately correspond with the 1.0 release?
 
 The process is a little involved, so I won't do it unless a majority of people
 here are in support and will in turn vote for it on the usenet. This potenially
 would allow a larger audience and make things easier to seach for. The
down-side
 is group spam. I was thinking that the general D language could be discussed in
 comp.lang.d and DMD compiler issues would remain in this group.
 
 http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html
 
 Marco
 
 
 In article <bt0vff$17ev$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...
 
"Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bsvo4b$2ilg$1 digitaldaemon.com...

I really only have 1

1) That the D language version 1.0 is finalized and released in 2004. The


window

of opportunity closes a little each year for getting a new language off


the

ground and adopted by a decent sized developer community so it doesn't die


a

premature death.  I can't use it at work unless it becomes popular.


I think it's pretty close. I'm finishing up what I hope will be the last bit
of new features, and then it'll be bug fixing. D 1.0 will probably be the
most powerful 1.0 language ever released!

Jan 07 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "KTC" <me here.com> writes:

"Damon Gray" wrote...
 Good idea!

 I would definitely vote for it if I could. What is also nice about
 getting it into "The big eight" is that it will be indexed and
 searchable via "groups.google.com". This will make the spam problem
 negligible because results will be searched for not browsed. I would
 start the process as soon as possible. If it doesn't work out


 can put there news server into the larger usenet feed and then it


 added into google.


If you can't make it into the Big-8, then you can of course create it
in Alt.
But I would say having it inside the Big-8 would be a lot better in
promoting the language to the programming community as a whole...

KTC
-- 
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
    - Heinrich Heine

Jan 07 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Matthew" <matthew.hat stlsoft.dot.org> writes:

"KTC" <me here.com> wrote in message news:bti7kk$bp7$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 "Damon Gray" wrote...
 Good idea!

 I would definitely vote for it if I could. What is also nice about
 getting it into "The big eight" is that it will be indexed and
 searchable via "groups.google.com". This will make the spam problem
 negligible because results will be searched for not browsed. I would
 start the process as soon as possible. If it doesn't work out


 can put there news server into the larger usenet feed and then it


 added into google.


 If you can't make it into the Big-8, then you can of course create it
 in Alt.
 But I would say having it inside the Big-8 would be a lot better in
 promoting the language to the programming community as a whole...


I would say the whole thing or nothing. I wouldn't vote for it to go into
alt, if it doesn't get in the Big-9

Jan 07 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Matthew" <matthew.hat stlsoft.dot.org> writes:

"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:btntg8$303u$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 "KTC" <me here.com> wrote in message


 If you can't make it into the Big-8, then you can of course create it
 in Alt.
 But I would say having it inside the Big-8 would be a lot better in
 promoting the language to the programming community as a whole...


 I'm not too keen on the idea of an alt group. D belongs in comp.lang.d,


 if that doesn't happen, we should keep it here until it does happen.


I won't be visiting alt.*.D.

Jan 09 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"Matthew" <matthew.hat stlsoft.dot.org> wrote in message
news:btnum5$9t$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message
 news:btntg8$303u$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 "KTC" <me here.com> wrote in message


 If you can't make it into the Big-8, then you can of course create it
 in Alt.
 But I would say having it inside the Big-8 would be a lot better in
 promoting the language to the programming community as a whole...


 I'm not too keen on the idea of an alt group. D belongs in comp.lang.d,


 if that doesn't happen, we should keep it here until it does happen.


 I won't be visiting alt.*.D.


Should rename "alt" to "purgatory" <g>.

Jan 09 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "C" <dont respond.com> writes:

got my vote :).

C
"Marco A" <Marco_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:btfkfk$2bs2$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Would people be interested in creating a comp.lang.d usenet group to
 approximately correspond with the 1.0 release?

 The process is a little involved, so I won't do it unless a majority of


 here are in support and will in turn vote for it on the usenet. This


 would allow a larger audience and make things easier to seach for. The


 is group spam. I was thinking that the general D language could be


 comp.lang.d and DMD compiler issues would remain in this group.

 http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html

 Marco


 In article <bt0vff$17ev$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...
"Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bsvo4b$2ilg$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 I really only have 1

 1) That the D language version 1.0 is finalized and released in 2004.






window
 of opportunity closes a little each year for getting a new language off


 ground and adopted by a decent sized developer community so it doesn't






a
 premature death.  I can't use it at work unless it becomes popular.


I think it's pretty close. I'm finishing up what I hope will be the last




of new features, and then it'll be bug fixing. D 1.0 will probably be the
most powerful 1.0 language ever released!

Jan 08 2004

↑ ↓ ← → J Anderson <REMOVEanderson badmama.com.au> writes:

Marco A wrote:

Would people be interested in creating a comp.lang.d usenet group to
approximately correspond with the 1.0 release?

The process is a little involved, so I won't do it unless a majority of people
here are in support and will in turn vote for it on the usenet. This potenially
would allow a larger audience and make things easier to seach for. The down-side
is group spam. I was thinking that the general D language could be discussed in
comp.lang.d and DMD compiler issues would remain in this group.

http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html

Marco

  


in this group?
I wonder if any of the die hard C fans would vote against?

Jan 09 2004

↑ ↓ ← → J C Calvarese <jcc7 cox.net> writes:

J Anderson wrote:

 Marco A wrote:
 
 Would people be interested in creating a comp.lang.d usenet group to
 approximately correspond with the 1.0 release?

 The process is a little involved, so I won't do it unless a majority 
 of people
 here are in support and will in turn vote for it on the usenet. This 
 potenially
 would allow a larger audience and make things easier to seach for. The 
 down-side
 is group spam. I was thinking that the general D language could be 
 discussed in
 comp.lang.d and DMD compiler issues would remain in this group.

 http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html

 Marco

  


 in this group?



Walter would have a better idea than most of us since he can count how 
many download occur when a new version is released.  (Of course I hope 
he factors in that some people might download the same release multiple 
times to put on different computers.)

I'm confident that there are many people the are fans of D (and would be 
inclined to support D with a vote) that simply aren't inclined to post 
many messages here.

 I wonder if any of the die hard C fans would vote against?
 


Then I subscribed to news:news.announce.newgroups and reading the posts 
sheds a little light about voting process on recent proposals:

Date       Group                 Yes   No  A I
2003/11/25 misc.invest.bonds      52   12  3 1 (failed)
2003/11/25 misc.metric-system    211   25  6 3 (passed)
2003/12/09 news.admin.parliament  23   98  8 3 (failed)
2003/12/15 comp.databases.etl     41   13  3 2 (failed)

"A" is abstaining and "I" is invalid.

It's a small sample, so you shouldn't give much weight to my musings, 
but I do want to make some guess about how this might work for D

The parliament group idea looked like it might have annoyed some people, 
so I don't think we would expect 98 votes against a D group.  I'd guess 
that 10-25 people might vote against (but of course everyone should 
welcome a D group).

-- 
Justin
http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/

Jan 09 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Matthew" <matthew.hat stlsoft.dot.org> writes:

 J Anderson wrote:

 Marco A wrote:

 Would people be interested in creating a comp.lang.d usenet group to
 approximately correspond with the 1.0 release?

 The process is a little involved, so I won't do it unless a majority
 of people
 here are in support and will in turn vote for it on the usenet. This
 potenially
 would allow a larger audience and make things easier to seach for. The
 down-side
 is group spam. I was thinking that the general D language could be
 discussed in
 comp.lang.d and DMD compiler issues would remain in this group.

 http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html

 Marco


 in this group?



 Walter would have a better idea than most of us since he can count how
 many download occur when a new version is released.  (Of course I hope
 he factors in that some people might download the same release multiple
 times to put on different computers.)

 I'm confident that there are many people the are fans of D (and would be
 inclined to support D with a vote) that simply aren't inclined to post
 many messages here.

 I wonder if any of the die hard C fans would vote against?


 Then I subscribed to news:news.announce.newgroups and reading the posts
 sheds a little light about voting process on recent proposals:

 Date       Group                 Yes   No  A I
 2003/11/25 misc.invest.bonds      52   12  3 1 (failed)
 2003/11/25 misc.metric-system    211   25  6 3 (passed)
 2003/12/09 news.admin.parliament  23   98  8 3 (failed)
 2003/12/15 comp.databases.etl     41   13  3 2 (failed)

 "A" is abstaining and "I" is invalid.

 It's a small sample, so you shouldn't give much weight to my musings,
 but I do want to make some guess about how this might work for D

 The parliament group idea looked like it might have annoyed some people,
 so I don't think we would expect 98 votes against a D group.  I'd guess
 that 10-25 people might vote against (but of course everyone should
 welcome a D group).


I hope you're right, but it seems optimistic to me. Judging from the amount
of heat Walter was copping a couple of months ago on c.l.c.m, there'd be
quite a few Nos on D.

I think we'd need a well coordinated countdown on the D NG, so that everyone
who's inclined would not forget to add their vote.

Jan 09 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Georg Wrede <Georg_member pathlink.com> writes:

In article <btnii9$2f79$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Matthew says...
 J Anderson wrote:

 Marco A wrote:

 Would people be interested in creating a comp.lang.d usenet group to
 approximately correspond with the 1.0 release?








Would it be a good idea to try a test vote right here? We could ask everybody,
including the people who don't usually write here, to cast a yes/no vote for
their contribution to the c.l newsgroup?

Jan 09 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Matthew" <matthew.hat stlsoft.dot.org> writes:

"Georg Wrede" <Georg_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:btnkm8$2imu$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 In article <btnii9$2f79$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Matthew says...
 J Anderson wrote:

 Marco A wrote:

 Would people be interested in creating a comp.lang.d usenet group to
 approximately correspond with the 1.0 release?








 Would it be a good idea to try a test vote right here? We could ask


 including the people who don't usually write here, to cast a yes/no vote


 their contribution to the c.l newsgroup?


Sure. Why not?

But surely we're in for a 99+% response, aren't we?

Jan 09 2004

↑ ↓ ← → J Anderson <REMOVEanderson badmama.com.au> writes:

Matthew wrote:

"Georg Wrede" <Georg_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:btnkm8$2imu$1 digitaldaemon.com...
  

In article <btnii9$2f79$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Matthew says...
    

J Anderson wrote:

        

Marco A wrote:

          

Would people be interested in creating a comp.lang.d usenet group to
approximately correspond with the 1.0 release?
            








    


  

including the people who don't usually write here, to cast a yes/no vote
    


  

their contribution to the c.l newsgroup?
    


Sure. Why not?

But surely we're in for a 99+% response, aren't we?

  


good idea to see how many potential votes we'll get.

Jan 09 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Matthew" <matthew.hat stlsoft.dot.org> writes:

"J Anderson" <REMOVEanderson badmama.com.au> wrote in message
news:btnu23$30nq$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Matthew wrote:

"Georg Wrede" <Georg_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:btnkm8$2imu$1 digitaldaemon.com...


In article <btnii9$2f79$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Matthew says...


J Anderson wrote:



Marco A wrote:



Would people be interested in creating a comp.lang.d usenet group to
approximately correspond with the 1.0 release?












including the people who don't usually write here, to cast a yes/no vote




their contribution to the c.l newsgroup?


Sure. Why not?

But surely we're in for a 99+% response, aren't we?


 good idea to see how many potential votes we'll get.


Good point. Let's do it.

Jan 09 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Matthew" <matthew.hat stlsoft.dot.org> writes:

"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:btntg9$303u$2 digitaldaemon.com...
 "Matthew" <matthew.hat stlsoft.dot.org> wrote in message
 news:btnii9$2f79$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 I think we'd need a well coordinated countdown on the D NG, so that


 who's inclined would not forget to add their vote.


 I'd like to wait until after SDWest, and 1.0 is released (early March).


 would give us our best shot.


Fine by me

Jan 09 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "KTC" <me here.com> writes:

"Walter" wrote...
 I'd like to wait until after SDWest, and 1.0 is released (early


 would give us our best shot.


Sure, the whole process takes about 2-3 months anyway. You just decide
when it is the best timing for submitting a formal proposal & then the
PQ for the actual votes... The formal proposal need to be work on
first anyway so we can do that in the mean time.

However this community try to promote it when the time comes (i.e.
telling people how/when to vote etc.), just need to make sure there
will be no violation of any of the "Guidelines for Big Eight Newsgroup
Creation". Namely one of the most important being:

    "The explicit voting instructions in the CFV may not be
distributed, in whole or in part, to any forum, by anyone except the
votetaker. People wishing to vote should be referred to the CFV posted
in news.announce.newgroups or told to contact the votetaker for a
copy. Violations may result in invalidation of votes by the votetaker
or long-term suspension of the proposal by the n.a.n moderation team."

KTC
-- 
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
    - Heinrich Heine

Jan 10 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"KTC" <me here.com> wrote in message news:btp7sf$23dq$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 "Walter" wrote...
 I'd like to wait until after SDWest, and 1.0 is released (early


 Sure, the whole process takes about 2-3 months anyway. You just decide
 when it is the best timing for submitting a formal proposal & then the
 PQ for the actual votes... The formal proposal need to be work on
 first anyway so we can do that in the mean time.


Ok, let's do it.

 However this community try to promote it when the time comes (i.e.
 telling people how/when to vote etc.), just need to make sure there
 will be no violation of any of the "Guidelines for Big Eight Newsgroup
 Creation". Namely one of the most important being:

     "The explicit voting instructions in the CFV may not be
 distributed, in whole or in part, to any forum, by anyone except the
 votetaker. People wishing to vote should be referred to the CFV posted
 in news.announce.newgroups or told to contact the votetaker for a
 copy. Violations may result in invalidation of votes by the votetaker
 or long-term suspension of the proposal by the n.a.n moderation team."


And we'll do it by the book!

Jan 10 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Matthew" <matthew.hat stlsoft.dot.org> writes:

"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:btpmol$303c$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 "KTC" <me here.com> wrote in message


 "Walter" wrote...
 I'd like to wait until after SDWest, and 1.0 is released (early


 Sure, the whole process takes about 2-3 months anyway. You just decide
 when it is the best timing for submitting a formal proposal & then the
 PQ for the actual votes... The formal proposal need to be work on
 first anyway so we can do that in the mean time.


 Ok, let's do it.

 However this community try to promote it when the time comes (i.e.
 telling people how/when to vote etc.), just need to make sure there
 will be no violation of any of the "Guidelines for Big Eight Newsgroup
 Creation". Namely one of the most important being:

     "The explicit voting instructions in the CFV may not be
 distributed, in whole or in part, to any forum, by anyone except the
 votetaker. People wishing to vote should be referred to the CFV posted
 in news.announce.newgroups or told to contact the votetaker for a
 copy. Violations may result in invalidation of votes by the votetaker
 or long-term suspension of the proposal by the n.a.n moderation team."


 And we'll do it by the book!


I must be thick or something. I failed to grok how one might fall foul of
the process.

Jan 10 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "KTC" <me here.com> writes:

"Matthew" wrote...
     "The explicit voting instructions in the CFV may not be
 distributed, in whole or in part, to any forum, by anyone except






 votetaker. People wishing to vote should be referred to the CFV






 in news.announce.newgroups or told to contact the votetaker for






 copy. Violations may result in invalidation of votes by the






 or long-term suspension of the proposal by the n.a.n moderation






 And we'll do it by the book!


 I must be thick or something. I failed to grok how one might fall


 the process.


Ah you usually won't, but people could get overly excited sometimes
with trying to get other people to vote that they post in newsgroups
or mailing list the instructions of how to vote etc...

Anyway, now that decided we're going to do it, need to sort out whos
actually going to work on the formal proposal etc.
Marco??

Jan 11 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Georg Wrede <Georg_member pathlink.com> writes:

In article <bt0vff$17ev$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...
"Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
 I really only have 1
 1) That the D language version 1.0 is finalized and released in 2004.


of new features, and then it'll be bug fixing. D 1.0 will probably be the
most powerful 1.0 language ever released!


I think that the notion about the closing window is valid. We might not
see today what all will contribute to closing the window, but "just 
because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get us".

I also agree on that this just might be one of the most powerful 1.0
language releases ever!

However, I had a dream the other week about walking the halls of the
KDE development team. (As if they'd have a building of their own.)
I tried to convince them to switch to D. The counter argument was that
they'd never switch to a language where the specs are alive. They just
couldn't afford it.

So, should we make a promise to keep the March specs, until at least
December? 

We could have a separate track where we do development and debugging,
or we could have a Linux like scheme were only the even releases are
for users. 

Actually, what is _really_ important is to have a fixed spec around
March. Whether the compiler is perfectly debugged or completely up to
the spec is of secondary importance. That can always be fixed during
the summer. But a _really solid_ spec is what we should publish in
March.

Jan 09 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Matthew" <matthew.hat stlsoft.dot.org> writes:

"Georg Wrede" <Georg_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:btnkai$2i30$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 In article <bt0vff$17ev$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...
"Mark T" <Mark_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
 I really only have 1
 1) That the D language version 1.0 is finalized and released in 2004.






of new features, and then it'll be bug fixing. D 1.0 will probably be the
most powerful 1.0 language ever released!


 I think that the notion about the closing window is valid. We might not
 see today what all will contribute to closing the window, but "just
 because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get us".


I think you'll find that there are a lot more people with "hand" watching D
than can be guessed from the NG participation.

I know that people are interested in the articles that Walter and I've been
doing, and are also interested in the idea of The D Journal. If we make a go
of it, we might spark interest and/or support in all manner of unimagined
places.

Let's hope everyone can contribute ideas and articles over the next month or
two, and we can start with a splash.

Jan 09 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"Matthias Becker" <Matthias_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:btrvl0$h33$1 digitaldaemon.com...
I think it's pretty close. I'm finishing up what I hope will be the last




of new features, and then it'll be bug fixing. D 1.0 will probably be the
most powerful 1.0 language ever released!


 There is no C++-Standard before C++98. So this is version 1.0 and it's


 more powerfull that D.


D has many very powerful features that C++ does not have, such as nested
functions and inline assembly. C++ has features that D does not have, such
as a preprocessor and virtual base classes. While no definitive answer is
possible since eventually one starts comparing apples to oranges, what in
your view makes C++ more powerful than D?

Jan 11 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Andy Friesen <andy ikagames.com> writes:

Walter wrote:
 "Matthias Becker" <Matthias_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
 news:btrvl0$h33$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 
I think it's pretty close. I'm finishing up what I hope will be the last




 bit
 
of new features, and then it'll be bug fixing. D 1.0 will probably be the
most powerful 1.0 language ever released!


There is no C++-Standard before C++98. So this is version 1.0 and it's


 still
 
more powerfull that D.


 
 D has many very powerful features that C++ does not have, such as nested
 functions and inline assembly. C++ has features that D does not have, such
 as a preprocessor and virtual base classes. While no definitive answer is
 possible since eventually one starts comparing apples to oranges, what in
 your view makes C++ more powerful than D?


The fact that C++ template functions can infer their template arguments 
makes it really easy to express certain things, however much grief it 
causes the compiler.  Also, C++ interfaces with C++ quite well. :)

I don't think the preprocessor counts: there's nothing at all stopping 
someone from running cpp through some D source before giving it to the D 
compiler.  The only difference is that not using a preprocessor with C++ 
is complete suicide. (which isn't exactly a strong point)

I think that's about it.

C++'s real strength is that it's so prolific.  There are tons of tools 
and libraries written with and for C++, as well as people used to 
thinking in terms of it.

  -- andy

Jan 11 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"Andy Friesen" <andy ikagames.com> wrote in message
news:btscdc$15go$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Walter wrote:
There is no C++-Standard before C++98. So this is version 1.0 and it's


more powerfull that D.


 D has many very powerful features that C++ does not have, such as nested
 functions and inline assembly. C++ has features that D does not have,




 as a preprocessor and virtual base classes. While no definitive answer




 possible since eventually one starts comparing apples to oranges, what




 your view makes C++ more powerful than D?


 The fact that C++ template functions can infer their template arguments
 makes it really easy to express certain things, however much grief it
 causes the compiler.


Given the vast array of features in both languages, is that really an
overriding feature?

 Also, C++ interfaces with C++ quite well. :)


That's cheating <g>.

 I don't think the preprocessor counts: there's nothing at all stopping
 someone from running cpp through some D source before giving it to the D
 compiler.


True (and D is specifically accommodating to doing that), but technically
speaking, using addon tools is not part of the language itself.

 C++'s real strength is that it's so prolific.  There are tons of tools
 and libraries written with and for C++, as well as people used to
 thinking in terms of it.


Undeniably, C++ is rich in books, libraries, user base, articles written
about it, etc.

Jan 11 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Andy Friesen <andy ikagames.com> writes:

Walter wrote:
 "Andy Friesen" <andy ikagames.com> wrote in message
 news:btscdc$15go$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 
The fact that C++ template functions can infer their template arguments
makes it really easy to express certain things, however much grief it
causes the compiler.


 Given the vast array of features in both languages, is that really an
 overriding feature?


I'm not sure.  I myself can live without it, but you have to look at the 
sorts of things boost manages to pull off.  Not the least of which is 
using exactly this to implement some amazingly convincing (though 
somewhat brittle) lambda forms.  (basically, it involves a template 
object that appends operations to itself when you apply an operator to it)

Also, C++ interfaces with C++ quite well. :)


 That's cheating <g>.


That's the trouble with getting in a fight with The Man.  He never 
fights fair. ;)

  -- andy

Jan 11 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"Andy Friesen" <andy ikagames.com> wrote in message
news:btstea$210m$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Walter wrote:
 "Andy Friesen" <andy ikagames.com> wrote in message
 news:btscdc$15go$1 digitaldaemon.com...
The fact that C++ template functions can infer their template arguments
makes it really easy to express certain things, however much grief it
causes the compiler.


 overriding feature?


 sorts of things boost manages to pull off.  Not the least of which is
 using exactly this to implement some amazingly convincing (though
 somewhat brittle) lambda forms.  (basically, it involves a template
 object that appends operations to itself when you apply an operator to it)


Sure, but D offers direct support for lambda forms! I've seen some of the
C++ lambda libraries, and while they are technically amazing, they are a
little past the bleeding edge for production use because, as you say, they
are brittle.

Perhaps we disagree on what power means. I interpret it as being able to get
what I want done in a simple, straightforward manner. If something can only
be done as a complex, brittle construction loaded with special rules, I'm
going to suggest that reveals a weakness in the language.

For a simpler example, let's take inline functions. I can do it like this:

    inline int max(int a, int b) { return a < b ? b : a; }

or I can say, use the powerful preprocessor:

    #define max(a,b) ((a) < (b) ? (b) : (a))

The latter is brittle and loaded with special rules and traps for the
unwary. Therefore I think the former is more powerful.

Jan 11 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Andy Friesen <andy ikagames.com> writes:

Walter wrote:
 Sure, but D offers direct support for lambda forms! I've seen some of the
 C++ lambda libraries, and while they are technically amazing, they are a
 little past the bleeding edge for production use because, as you say, they
 are brittle.
 
 Perhaps we disagree on what power means. I interpret it as being able to get
 what I want done in a simple, straightforward manner. If something can only
 be done as a complex, brittle construction loaded with special rules, I'm
 going to suggest that reveals a weakness in the language.


Absolutely.  I just have this thing for playing the devil's advocate 
sometimes. :)

What I meant was that lambdas weren't even supposed to be part of the 
language, but the existing constructs (almost, heh) allow it to happen 
anyway.  C++ is impressive in that it's possible to extend the language 
from within itself in this way, and to make those extensions (sometimes) 
appear completely transparent, or nearly so.

To be honest, I'm not at all convinced it's worth the tradeoff, but 
there are those who disagree with me.

  -- andy

Jan 11 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Matthew" <matthew.hat stlsoft.dot.org> writes:

"Andy Friesen" <andy ikagames.com> wrote in message
news:btte7f$2t4t$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Walter wrote:
 Sure, but D offers direct support for lambda forms! I've seen some of




 C++ lambda libraries, and while they are technically amazing, they are a
 little past the bleeding edge for production use because, as you say,




 are brittle.

 Perhaps we disagree on what power means. I interpret it as being able to




 what I want done in a simple, straightforward manner. If something can




 be done as a complex, brittle construction loaded with special rules,




 going to suggest that reveals a weakness in the language.


 Absolutely.  I just have this thing for playing the devil's advocate
 sometimes. :)

 What I meant was that lambdas weren't even supposed to be part of the
 language, but the existing constructs (almost, heh) allow it to happen
 anyway.  C++ is impressive in that it's possible to extend the language
 from within itself in this way, and to make those extensions (sometimes)
 appear completely transparent, or nearly so.

 To be honest, I'm not at all convinced it's worth the tradeoff, but
 there are those who disagree with me.


Surely it depends on a case-by-case basis. If it's efficient, and it's
widely supported, and it does not require an inscrutable mass of template
and/or macro arcana, then I would say it is worth it. If it fails on any of
those criteria, I would say it's not worth it.

Jan 11 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "C" <dont respond.com> writes:

I think C++ has enough add-on s as it is, it starts to feel like a bunch of
hacks.  Now they're just stuffing it full of everything they can find.

IMO starting a new language was the perfect strategy.  D is so clean , to me
being able to express myself clearly and consistently without jumping
through hurdles qualifies D as the most powerful ( currently ).

I think when honest C++ users start with D ( there is always those who
cannot let go ), their thoughts well be along the line of :
"Its about damn time."

C

"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message
news:btti8m$22d$2 digitaldaemon.com...
 "Andy Friesen" <andy ikagames.com> wrote in message
 news:btte7f$2t4t$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 To be honest, I'm not at all convinced it's worth the tradeoff, but
 there are those who disagree with me.


 Right. I've been taken to task by some C++ experts for designing a whole


 language rather than working to add more generic programming power into

Jan 12 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"C" <dont respond.com> wrote in message
news:btuium$1qgd$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 I think C++ has enough add-on s as it is, it starts to feel like a bunch


 hacks.


Because of the legacy compatibility problem C++ has, any new additions are
pretty much forced into looking like hacks, or are pretty much
unimplementable, like export. (Yes, I know EDG proved it could be
implemented at enormous expense.)

 Now they're just stuffing it full of everything they can find.


I'm going to defend C++ on that point. Aside from export, I think the
features added in to C++ were carefully considered and are defensible. The
problems stem from having to fit those features into the legacy framework,
and are unavoidable given an unwillingness to break existing code.

 IMO starting a new language was the perfect strategy.  D is so clean , to


 being able to express myself clearly and consistently without jumping
 through hurdles qualifies D as the most powerful ( currently ).


My sentiments exactly!

 I think when honest C++ users start with D ( there is always those who
 cannot let go ), their thoughts well be along the line of :
 "Its about damn time."


That is the reaction I get from most people who are willing to give it an
unbiased look. A few who do give it an honest look don't like it, and that's
ok, too. Not everyone has the same idea of what a reengineered C++ should
look like.

Jan 12 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Georg Wrede <Georg_member pathlink.com> writes:

In article <btt3h3$2aqu$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...
"Andy Friesen" <andy ikagames.com> wrote in message
news:btstea$210m$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Walter wrote:
 "Andy Friesen" <andy ikagames.com> wrote in message






I think that discussing the power of a language (or, especially
the relative power of languages), has the same inherent problems
as discussing Quality. The economist academia have for years tried
to come up with an unambiguous, quantifiable, definition for quality,
unsuccessfully.

Since the comparison between any two languages ultimately reduces
to comparing apples to oranges, we should at least temporarily
define what power means.

While doing that, we should also remember that "in reality" power
is a street concept that is measured mostly unconsciously. I assume
this includes, in addition to factual language differences, things
like usability and applicability for the end user, which includes
the easily accessible libraries, number and quality of tools, 
whether you can ask the guy in the next cubicle for help, etc., etc.

The Street Power is what decides, with the masses, at least, which
language will be used. 

Here, I think, what counts, are those properties "we can do something
about" in the next 3 months? (For C++ in this discussion Power should
exclude supporting programs, such as IDE, lint, and others.)

(...) what power means. I interpret it as being able to get
what I want done in a simple, straightforward manner. If something can only
be done as a complex, brittle construction loaded with special rules, I'm
going to suggest that reveals a weakness in the language.


Agreed.

Jan 11 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"Georg Wrede" <Georg_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bttfqv$2vic$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 I think that discussing the power of a language (or, especially
 the relative power of languages), has the same inherent problems
 as discussing Quality. The economist academia have for years tried
 to come up with an unambiguous, quantifiable, definition for quality,
 unsuccessfully.


Yes.

 Since the comparison between any two languages ultimately reduces
 to comparing apples to oranges, we should at least temporarily
 define what power means.


In an academic sense, yes. But that's not really what I was after. I wanted
to know what other peoples' perception of power was, and what they were
using as criteria to support the conclusion that C++ was more powerful than
D. In other words, I want to understand what I missed either in D or if I
just failed in explaining what D can to.

 While doing that, we should also remember that "in reality" power
 is a street concept that is measured mostly unconsciously.


Yes.

 I assume
 this includes, in addition to factual language differences, things
 like usability and applicability for the end user, which includes
 the easily accessible libraries, number and quality of tools,
 whether you can ask the guy in the next cubicle for help, etc., etc.


All new languages have a major uphill battle with that. And I believe 2004
is the year in which we'll get solidly into the game on that.

Jan 11 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Matthias Becker <Matthias_member pathlink.com> writes:

 I assume
 this includes, in addition to factual language differences, things
 like usability and applicability for the end user, which includes
 the easily accessible libraries, number and quality of tools,
 whether you can ask the guy in the next cubicle for help, etc., etc.


All new languages have a major uphill battle with that. And I believe 2004
is the year in which we'll get solidly into the game on that.


compaired to .NET? This is the libray that comes with a new language (C#) today.
Javas library isn't bad as well. I think it will be hard.

Jan 12 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Sean L. Palmer" <palmer.sean verizon.net> writes:

.NET is designed so that other languages can be ported to it as a platform.
D can use the .NET libraries once a CIL compiler is made for it.

Sean

"Matthias Becker" <Matthias_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:btul5l$1u8d$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 I assume
 this includes, in addition to factual language differences, things
 like usability and applicability for the end user, which includes
 the easily accessible libraries, number and quality of tools,
 whether you can ask the guy in the next cubicle for help, etc., etc.


All new languages have a major uphill battle with that. And I believe




is the year in which we'll get solidly into the game on that.


 compaired to .NET? This is the libray that comes with a new language (C#)


 Javas library isn't bad as well. I think it will be hard.

Jan 12 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"Matthias Becker" <Matthias_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:btul5l$1u8d$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 I assume
 this includes, in addition to factual language differences, things
 like usability and applicability for the end user, which includes
 the easily accessible libraries, number and quality of tools,
 whether you can ask the guy in the next cubicle for help, etc., etc.


All new languages have a major uphill battle with that. And I believe




is the year in which we'll get solidly into the game on that.


 compaired to .NET? This is the libray that comes with a new language (C#)


 Javas library isn't bad as well. I think it will be hard.


There's just no way D will get a library comparable in breadth to .net and
java in 2004. But I don't see that as necessary to the near term success of
D. However, I expect to see the emergence of tools to aid in getting
existing C and C++ libraries to work with D. And that will help a lot.

Jan 12 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Ian Johnston <Ian_member pathlink.com> writes:

In article <btuv9l$2g2j$3 digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...
"Matthias Becker" <Matthias_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:btul5l$1u8d$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 I assume
 this includes, in addition to factual language differences, things
 like usability and applicability for the end user, which includes
 the easily accessible libraries, number and quality of tools,
 whether you can ask the guy in the next cubicle for help, etc., etc.


All new languages have a major uphill battle with that. And I believe




is the year in which we'll get solidly into the game on that.


 compaired to .NET? This is the libray that comes with a new language (C#)


 Javas library isn't bad as well. I think it will be hard.


There's just no way D will get a library comparable in breadth to .net and
java in 2004. But I don't see that as necessary to the near term success of
D. However, I expect to see the emergence of tools to aid in getting
existing C and C++ libraries to work with D. And that will help a lot.



Adding a D generator to the SWIG package would surely go a long way to
alleviating many of these problems.

Ian

Jan 13 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"Matthias Becker" <Matthias_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bu19s0$88l$1 digitaldaemon.com...
There's just no way D will get a library comparable in breadth to .net




java in 2004. But I don't see that as necessary to the near term success




D. However, I expect to see the emergence of tools to aid in getting
existing C and C++ libraries to work with D. And that will help a lot.





What libraries would you like to see in D?

Jan 13 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Achilleas Margaritis" <axilmar b-online.gr> writes:

 There's just no way D will get a library comparable in breadth to .net and
 java in 2004. But I don't see that as necessary to the near term success


 D. However, I expect to see the emergence of tools to aid in getting
 existing C and C++ libraries to work with D. And that will help a lot.


Sorry for getting involved Walter, but I think you got it wrong here. I may
not know very much about compilers, but having dealt with many different
programmers in my career, the first thing they ask about a new language is:

"can I do X with this new language Y?"

For example, today I demonstrated to my colleagues a little demo I have made
about colliding snooker balls, showing collision and reaction. The very
first question was:

"In what language did you do it ?"

I replied:

"C++."

"Oh, I thought it was made with Macromedia."

The guy that asked came from a web design team.

The immediate question was:

"I see that C++ can do graphics, eh ? nice"

I did not tell him anything. I could not explain to him that there are so
many options in C++ for doing graphics, and there is no standard!!!

My job is with defense/real-time applications (my company has a small
department about that). Up until now, we used ADA and C++. Now, our
contractor wants us to use Java!!! And we have, for about 2 years now.

Why do the military want to use Java anyway ? I will tell you why: because
of the libraries. They told us that "the cost of porting an app or writing
it in a language that does not directly support things like gui, threads or
networking is much more than writing it in Java, even with the Java
tradeoffs."

The moral of this story is that computing power is cheap, but computing
labour is expensive. So, every little help matters, and having a first class
library support for GUI and other important stuff is one of the primary
concerns.

C++ is slowly being abandoned for this reason.

So, I don't think D, even if it is the richest, most elegant and easier
programming language in the world, will succeed without standard libraries
for what the modern developer wants.

.NET and Java have it, why not D ?

Finally, I was reading an interview with Stroustrup, where he said that C++
did not have a standard GUI library, because of two reasons:

1) at the time that it was developed, GUIs where not the primary user
interface, at least in the not specialized section of the market.

2) there were no people willing to write a standard GUI, especially in the
light of non-existing GUIs back then.

The above can be translated (by reading between the lines) as "I wish there
was a standard GUI for C++, but, as the situation is right now, it will
never be".

(I am mentioning GUI first because it is *the* most important thing; but
there are also other functionalities to consider).

Jan 13 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "C" <dont respond.com> writes:

This is the best argument for Java I've heard yet , cost.  And unfortunately
in the end , alot of times thats what it comes down to ( especially with the
government ;) )

C
"Achilleas Margaritis" <axilmar b-online.gr> wrote in message
news:bu24j2$1m5l$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 There's just no way D will get a library comparable in breadth to .net




 java in 2004. But I don't see that as necessary to the near term success


 D. However, I expect to see the emergence of tools to aid in getting
 existing C and C++ libraries to work with D. And that will help a lot.


 Sorry for getting involved Walter, but I think you got it wrong here. I


 not know very much about compilers, but having dealt with many different
 programmers in my career, the first thing they ask about a new language


 "can I do X with this new language Y?"

 For example, today I demonstrated to my colleagues a little demo I have


 about colliding snooker balls, showing collision and reaction. The very
 first question was:

 "In what language did you do it ?"

 I replied:

 "C++."

 "Oh, I thought it was made with Macromedia."

 The guy that asked came from a web design team.

 The immediate question was:

 "I see that C++ can do graphics, eh ? nice"

 I did not tell him anything. I could not explain to him that there are so
 many options in C++ for doing graphics, and there is no standard!!!

 My job is with defense/real-time applications (my company has a small
 department about that). Up until now, we used ADA and C++. Now, our
 contractor wants us to use Java!!! And we have, for about 2 years now.

 Why do the military want to use Java anyway ? I will tell you why: because
 of the libraries. They told us that "the cost of porting an app or writing
 it in a language that does not directly support things like gui, threads


 networking is much more than writing it in Java, even with the Java
 tradeoffs."

 The moral of this story is that computing power is cheap, but computing
 labour is expensive. So, every little help matters, and having a first


 library support for GUI and other important stuff is one of the primary
 concerns.

 C++ is slowly being abandoned for this reason.

 So, I don't think D, even if it is the richest, most elegant and easier
 programming language in the world, will succeed without standard libraries
 for what the modern developer wants.

 .NET and Java have it, why not D ?

 Finally, I was reading an interview with Stroustrup, where he said that


 did not have a standard GUI library, because of two reasons:

 1) at the time that it was developed, GUIs where not the primary user
 interface, at least in the not specialized section of the market.

 2) there were no people willing to write a standard GUI, especially in the
 light of non-existing GUIs back then.

 The above can be translated (by reading between the lines) as "I wish


 was a standard GUI for C++, but, as the situation is right now, it will
 never be".

 (I am mentioning GUI first because it is *the* most important thing; but
 there are also other functionalities to consider).

Jan 13 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:

"Achilleas Margaritis" <axilmar b-online.gr> wrote in message
news:bu24j2$1m5l$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 The moral of this story is that computing power is cheap, but computing
 labour is expensive. So, every little help matters, and having a first


 library support for GUI and other important stuff is one of the primary
 concerns.


I think you make a good point.

 C++ is slowly being abandoned for this reason.


I think C++'s biggest problem is the expense of training people to use it
properly.

 So, I don't think D, even if it is the richest, most elegant and easier
 programming language in the world, will succeed without standard libraries
 for what the modern developer wants.


I agree that libraries are very important. But the first step is having a
powerful language!


 .NET and Java have it, why not D ?


Why not indeed!

 (I am mentioning GUI first because it is *the* most important thing; but
 there are also other functionalities to consider).


What I'd like to have happen, rather than design a new GUI from scratch,
instead take the best one out there and port it to D.

Jan 13 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Parinya Thipchart <thipchart yahoo.com> writes:

Walter wrote:
 "Paul Runde" <prunde consolidated.net> wrote in message
 news:bu4lvc$2qo1$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 
Walter wrote:

What I'd like to have happen, rather than design a new GUI from scratch,
instead take the best one out there and port it to D.


Any suggestions as for which GUI library is the best one?  wxWindows?


 
 wxWindows is certainly a contender.
 


wxWindows is the best choice in my opinion.
1. API is well designed easy to remember.
2. It supports a lot of GUI widgets and a lot of utility functions.
3. Cross-platforms. It has supported many platforms.
4. Its license that allows to make a commercial applications.
5. Borland has supported some works.
6. It's possible to build wxWindows with your great DMC so why not D :P
...

I really would like to see wxWindows as a part of D GUI toolkit.
Just my 2cents.

Regards,
Parinya

P.S. Sorry for my bad English.

Jan 15 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Stewart Gordon <smjg_1998 yahoo.com> writes:

While it was 15/1/04 12:14 am throughout the UK, Paul Runde sprinkled 
little black dots on a white screen, and they fell thus:
 Walter wrote:
 
 
 What I'd like to have happen, rather than design a new GUI from scratch,
 instead take the best one out there and port it to D.




Depends on what you want out of a library.

There are those that try to completely mask the OS API.  These have the 
advantage that they can be made cross-platform, but tend to sacrifice 
such native programming concepts as resource files for dialogs, menus 
and the like.

And then there are those that are geared to the API of a specific OS.  A 
prime example is Borland's ObjectWindows Library - presumably Microsoft 
Foundation Classes is the same sort of thing.  This has the programmer 
working with Windows API entities, and many of the OWL classes are 
simply wrappers around these entities.  In effect, a programmer-friendly 
interface to the API is provided that retains access to near-enough the 
whole API.

But either kind of library would tend to work in the same basic way - 
having a class for each GUI object (window, dialog, control, whatever 
else) and having the programmer define a method for each event (or 
dialog control) to be caught.

I am working on a GUI library in the style of OWL.  At the moment it's 
only really capable of producing a program that does nothing, but that's 
soon going to change.

Stewart.

-- 
My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox, aside from its being the 
unfortunate victim of intensive mail-bombing at the moment.  Please keep 
replies on the 'group where everyone may benefit.

Jan 15 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Georg Wrede <Georg_member pathlink.com> writes:

In article <bu24j2$1m5l$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Achilleas Margaritis says...
..
The moral of this story is that computing power is cheap, but computing
labour is expensive. So, every little help matters, and having a first class
library support for GUI and other important stuff is one of the primary
concerns.


Finally, I was reading an interview with Stroustrup, where he said that C++
did not have a standard GUI library, because of two reasons:


The above can be translated (by reading between the lines) as "I wish there
was a standard GUI for C++, but, as the situation is right now, it will
never be".


While I personally couldn't care less about the GUI, it does have an enormous
impact on the street. (You have to remember that for every programmer there 
are 10 jerks pretending to be the Resident Know-it-all, and these people
want to make a big splash with very little programming. (Deplorable, I 
know.) But each of these has an Uncle-in-law who is a corporate big shot.
Ahd those are the guys making the Real Decisions.) Being able to write
easy programs that loog good, just is a prerequisite to making any serious
inroads to the crystallised VB community. 

Borland made a splash with Turbo Vision (a character based GUI for console
programming, both Pascal and C++). This gave extra years and industry 
usage to Pascal, beyond their own expectations. Later they made The GUI
for Pascal, (and mostly for marketing reasons) changed the name to 
Delphi, as if there were a new language to go with the GUI. This has had
an enormous success. I dare say, if it hadn't been for Java, (and the 
$M put to its marketing) then Delphi would rule head to head with VB today.

So, access to effortless GUI programming does make a difference for a
language. 

One does not have to have a GUI (let alone an operating system specific
one) _in_ the language, or even in the Standard Library. But what we have
to make sure is _easy access_ and _common knowledge where to get it_!!

The main thing is that people actually do start using one. The less 
hours people use fighting with GUI trivialities, or operating system
idiosyncracies, the more time they can use to produce splashy, or 
useful, or even controversial applications in D.

It's like the old economist puzzle: give $100 000 each to 5 guys to
invest for 5 years. The first year one of them does 25% better than
the others. Now, how much do the others have to improve if he goes
on with that same absolute return rate?

Answer: no matter how much they cheat, how many they murder, they'll
never catch up, in the real world.

So, we better get those 25% more users _this year_. If it's not the
GUI programming, it'll have to be something else real sexy.

Jan 14 2004

↑ ↓ ← → "C" <dont respond.com> writes:

Well said!

I know its not sexy yet ( soon! ) , but there is Windy (
www.atari-soldiers.com/windy.html ).  An effortless GUI is helped alot by
the language i think , and D definetly has that going for it.

C

"Georg Wrede" <Georg_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bu4lgt$2q17$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 In article <bu24j2$1m5l$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Achilleas Margaritis says...
 ..
The moral of this story is that computing power is cheap, but computing
labour is expensive. So, every little help matters, and having a first




library support for GUI and other important stuff is one of the primary
concerns.


Finally, I was reading an interview with Stroustrup, where he said that




did not have a standard GUI library, because of two reasons:


The above can be translated (by reading between the lines) as "I wish




was a standard GUI for C++, but, as the situation is right now, it will
never be".


 While I personally couldn't care less about the GUI, it does have an


 impact on the street. (You have to remember that for every programmer


 are 10 jerks pretending to be the Resident Know-it-all, and these people
 want to make a big splash with very little programming. (Deplorable, I
 know.) But each of these has an Uncle-in-law who is a corporate big shot.
 Ahd those are the guys making the Real Decisions.) Being able to write
 easy programs that loog good, just is a prerequisite to making any serious
 inroads to the crystallised VB community.

 Borland made a splash with Turbo Vision (a character based GUI for console
 programming, both Pascal and C++). This gave extra years and industry
 usage to Pascal, beyond their own expectations. Later they made The GUI
 for Pascal, (and mostly for marketing reasons) changed the name to
 Delphi, as if there were a new language to go with the GUI. This has had
 an enormous success. I dare say, if it hadn't been for Java, (and the
 $M put to its marketing) then Delphi would rule head to head with VB


 So, access to effortless GUI programming does make a difference for a
 language.

 One does not have to have a GUI (let alone an operating system specific
 one) _in_ the language, or even in the Standard Library. But what we have
 to make sure is _easy access_ and _common knowledge where to get it_!!

 The main thing is that people actually do start using one. The less
 hours people use fighting with GUI trivialities, or operating system
 idiosyncracies, the more time they can use to produce splashy, or
 useful, or even controversial applications in D.

 It's like the old economist puzzle: give $100 000 each to 5 guys to
 invest for 5 years. The first year one of them does 25% better than
 the others. Now, how much do the others have to improve if he goes
 on with that same absolute return rate?

 Answer: no matter how much they cheat, how many they murder, they'll
 never catch up, in the real world.

 So, we better get those 25% more users _this year_. If it's not the
 GUI programming, it'll have to be something else real sexy.

Jan 14 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Andy Friesen <andy ikagames.com> writes:

C wrote:

 Well said!
 
 I know its not sexy yet ( soon! ) , but there is Windy (
 www.atari-soldiers.com/windy.html ).  An effortless GUI is helped alot by
 the language i think , and D definetly has that going for it.
 
 C


A tiny word of advice on that.  The main reason I haven't done much 
fiddling with windy at the moment is because it's large enough that 
understanding the design is nontrivial.  Profuse documentation (both the 
interface, and the implementation) would probably go a long way towards 
encouraging folks to try and use/improve it.

Additionally, you may want to get a hold of the author of DUI.  If windy 
and DUI just so happened to have identical interfaces, then D would 
suddenly have something quite similar to IBM's SWT.  (SWT is the GUI 
toolkit used in Eclipse.  It's basically reimplemented for every 
platform for maximum speed and native-look-and-feel-ism)

  -- andy

Jan 14 2004

↑ ↓ ← → Ant <duitoolkit yahoo.ca> writes:

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 21:30:43 -0800, Andy Friesen wrote:

 
 Additionally, you may want to get a hold of the author of DUI.  If windy 
 and DUI just so happened to have identical interfaces, then D would 
 suddenly have something quite similar to IBM's SWT.  (SWT is the GUI 
 toolkit used in Eclipse.  It's basically reimplemented for every 
 platform for maximum speed and native-look-and-feel-ism)
 


DUI is just a thin layer over GTK.
it's GTK calls wrapped 1 to 1 on D objects
using D arrays instead of GTK GList and 
defining an OO interface to callbacks
(the listeners you guys don't like).
Nothing more than that (oh, and a few of
simplifications on the API)

I started DUI because I tought I could get it
with a reasonable low amount of efford.

We could start by trying something like AWT:
create a common interface for what exist
on both platforms.
but I'm not put any hours on that.
DUI is already available for windows - even if alpha
with some important widgets missing (ie ComboBox)

Ant

DUI - D graphical Use Interface
http://dui.sourceforge.net

Jan 14 2004