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D - Longhorn

reply Albin Pucnik <albin.pucnik guest.arnes.si> writes:
Hi!
It looks like Microsoft is moving ( with its new
operating system codename Longhorn) to completely
managed code( see reports from their PDC).
What does that mean for D? Will D compilers translate
code to MSIL(microsoft intermediate language) to be
excecuted by their virtual machine (CLR)?

Albin
Oct 29 2003
next sibling parent reply "J. Daniel Smith" <J_Daniel_Smith HoTMaiL.com> writes:
"completely managed code" isn't true, but Longhorn clearly increases the
focus on managed code even more.

D has been designed as a "systems" language (a "replacement" for traditional
C/C++).  MSIL/CLR/.NET has been suggested before, but seems to be against
the "systems" nature of D.

   Dan

"Albin Pucnik" <albin.pucnik guest.arnes.si> wrote in message
news:bno9i3$2cd$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Hi!
 It looks like Microsoft is moving ( with its new
 operating system codename Longhorn) to completely
 managed code( see reports from their PDC).
 What does that mean for D? Will D compilers translate
 code to MSIL(microsoft intermediate language) to be
 excecuted by their virtual machine (CLR)?

 Albin

Oct 29 2003
next sibling parent reply Albin Pucnik <albin.pucnik guest.arnes.si> writes:
So there is no place for D in the managed world of Longhorn?

Bine

J. Daniel Smith wrote:
 "completely managed code" isn't true, but Longhorn clearly increases the
 focus on managed code even more.
 
 D has been designed as a "systems" language (a "replacement" for traditional
 C/C++).  MSIL/CLR/.NET has been suggested before, but seems to be against
 the "systems" nature of D.
 
    Dan

Oct 29 2003
parent reply "Lars Ivar Igesund" <larsivi stud.ntnu.no> writes:
A managed version of D is probably doable with enough resources.
His point I guess, is that managed code don't sound like it's any good for
the efficiency necessary for a systems language. I haven't read anything
about Longhorn yet, so I should probably not comment any further. But
I can't let go; It would probably be excessively stupid by MS to drop
support for their C API with 10+ years of legacy application code.

Lars Ivar Igesund

"Albin Pucnik" <albin.pucnik guest.arnes.si> wrote in message
news:bnonf7$l90$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 So there is no place for D in the managed world of Longhorn?

 Bine

 J. Daniel Smith wrote:
 "completely managed code" isn't true, but Longhorn clearly increases the
 focus on managed code even more.

 D has been designed as a "systems" language (a "replacement" for


 C/C++).  MSIL/CLR/.NET has been suggested before, but seems to be


 the "systems" nature of D.

    Dan


Oct 29 2003
next sibling parent The Lone Haranguer <The_member pathlink.com> writes:
It may also be stupid for MS to create an OS that can't be booted to a
command-prompt interface.

In article <bnoo2j$m3f$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Lars Ivar Igesund says...
A managed version of D is probably doable with enough resources.
His point I guess, is that managed code don't sound like it's any good for
the efficiency necessary for a systems language. I haven't read anything
about Longhorn yet, so I should probably not comment any further. But
I can't let go; It would probably be excessively stupid by MS to drop
support for their C API with 10+ years of legacy application code.

Lars Ivar Igesund

"Albin Pucnik" <albin.pucnik guest.arnes.si> wrote in message
news:bnonf7$l90$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 So there is no place for D in the managed world of Longhorn?

 Bine

 J. Daniel Smith wrote:
 "completely managed code" isn't true, but Longhorn clearly increases the
 focus on managed code even more.

 D has been designed as a "systems" language (a "replacement" for


 C/C++).  MSIL/CLR/.NET has been suggested before, but seems to be


 the "systems" nature of D.

    Dan



Oct 29 2003
prev sibling next sibling parent Patrick Down <Patrick_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <bnoo2j$m3f$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Lars Ivar Igesund says...
A managed version of D is probably doable with enough resources.
His point I guess, is that managed code don't sound like it's any good for
the efficiency necessary for a systems language. I haven't read anything
about Longhorn yet, so I should probably not comment any further. But
I can't let go; It would probably be excessively stupid by MS to drop
support for their C API with 10+ years of legacy application code.

I agree with this. Probably the upper layers like the shell will be written in managed code. But I can't imagine that the low level stuff would not have have C APIs.
Oct 29 2003
prev sibling parent reply "Christian Kaiser" <chk online.de> writes:
You should not underestimate the efficiency of C# and the CLR. Comparisons
(in windows::developer network) show that it can be much more efficient than
current c or C++ - depending on the quality of the libraries etc.

Ch.

"Lars Ivar Igesund" <larsivi stud.ntnu.no> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:bnoo2j$m3f$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 A managed version of D is probably doable with enough resources.
 His point I guess, is that managed code don't sound like it's any good for
 the efficiency necessary for a systems language. I haven't read anything
 about Longhorn yet, so I should probably not comment any further. But
 I can't let go; It would probably be excessively stupid by MS to drop
 support for their C API with 10+ years of legacy application code.

 Lars Ivar Igesund

 "Albin Pucnik" <albin.pucnik guest.arnes.si> wrote in message
 news:bnonf7$l90$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 So there is no place for D in the managed world of Longhorn?

 Bine

 J. Daniel Smith wrote:
 "completely managed code" isn't true, but Longhorn clearly increases



 focus on managed code even more.

 D has been designed as a "systems" language (a "replacement" for


 C/C++).  MSIL/CLR/.NET has been suggested before, but seems to be


 the "systems" nature of D.

    Dan



Oct 29 2003
next sibling parent "Lars Ivar Igesund" <larsivi stud.ntnu.no> writes:
"Christian Kaiser" <chk online.de> wrote in message
news:bnotsj$uhi$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 You should not underestimate the efficiency of C# and the CLR. Comparisons
 (in windows::developer network) show that it can be much more efficient

 current c or C++ - depending on the quality of the libraries etc.

Well, the guys at MicroSoft says the darndest things ;) Lars Ivar Igesund who won't pretend to know much about the managed code stuff
Oct 29 2003
prev sibling parent reply "Matthew Wilson" <matthew-hat -stlsoft-dot.-org> writes:
Hey! That was my study. :)

And I did not read the results to say that C# was good enough for the
implementation of operating systems. If that's what they're suggesting, I
find that both scary and ridiculous, and I'll be spending more time on my
Linux box

"Christian Kaiser" <chk online.de> wrote in message
news:bnotsj$uhi$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 You should not underestimate the efficiency of C# and the CLR. Comparisons
 (in windows::developer network) show that it can be much more efficient

 current c or C++ - depending on the quality of the libraries etc.

 Ch.

 "Lars Ivar Igesund" <larsivi stud.ntnu.no> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
 news:bnoo2j$m3f$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 A managed version of D is probably doable with enough resources.
 His point I guess, is that managed code don't sound like it's any good


 the efficiency necessary for a systems language. I haven't read anything
 about Longhorn yet, so I should probably not comment any further. But
 I can't let go; It would probably be excessively stupid by MS to drop
 support for their C API with 10+ years of legacy application code.

 Lars Ivar Igesund

 "Albin Pucnik" <albin.pucnik guest.arnes.si> wrote in message
 news:bnonf7$l90$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 So there is no place for D in the managed world of Longhorn?

 Bine

 J. Daniel Smith wrote:
 "completely managed code" isn't true, but Longhorn clearly increases



 focus on managed code even more.

 D has been designed as a "systems" language (a "replacement" for


 C/C++).  MSIL/CLR/.NET has been suggested before, but seems to be


 the "systems" nature of D.

    Dan




Oct 29 2003
parent "Charles Sanders" <sanders-consulting comcast.net> writes:
Hehe i read that too.  I was kind of mad after that, I hate VM's ( dont take
away my arguments! )

C

"Matthew Wilson" <matthew-hat -stlsoft-dot.-org> wrote in message
news:bnp7ev$1ct2$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Hey! That was my study. :)

 And I did not read the results to say that C# was good enough for the
 implementation of operating systems. If that's what they're suggesting, I
 find that both scary and ridiculous, and I'll be spending more time on my
 Linux box

 "Christian Kaiser" <chk online.de> wrote in message
 news:bnotsj$uhi$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 You should not underestimate the efficiency of C# and the CLR.


 (in windows::developer network) show that it can be much more efficient

 current c or C++ - depending on the quality of the libraries etc.

 Ch.

 "Lars Ivar Igesund" <larsivi stud.ntnu.no> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
 news:bnoo2j$m3f$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 A managed version of D is probably doable with enough resources.
 His point I guess, is that managed code don't sound like it's any good


 the efficiency necessary for a systems language. I haven't read



 about Longhorn yet, so I should probably not comment any further. But
 I can't let go; It would probably be excessively stupid by MS to drop
 support for their C API with 10+ years of legacy application code.

 Lars Ivar Igesund

 "Albin Pucnik" <albin.pucnik guest.arnes.si> wrote in message
 news:bnonf7$l90$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 So there is no place for D in the managed world of Longhorn?

 Bine

 J. Daniel Smith wrote:
 "completely managed code" isn't true, but Longhorn clearly





 the
 focus on managed code even more.

 D has been designed as a "systems" language (a "replacement" for


 C/C++).  MSIL/CLR/.NET has been suggested before, but seems to be


 the "systems" nature of D.

    Dan





Nov 01 2003
prev sibling parent reply "Achilleas Margaritis" <axilmar in.gr> writes:
If D is a "systems" language, why does it have garbage collection (that
can't be turned off) ? It does not seem that I can make an O/S using D...

"J. Daniel Smith" <J_Daniel_Smith HoTMaiL.com> wrote in message
news:bnogok$c1j$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 "completely managed code" isn't true, but Longhorn clearly increases the
 focus on managed code even more.

 D has been designed as a "systems" language (a "replacement" for

 C/C++).  MSIL/CLR/.NET has been suggested before, but seems to be against
 the "systems" nature of D.

    Dan

 "Albin Pucnik" <albin.pucnik guest.arnes.si> wrote in message
 news:bno9i3$2cd$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Hi!
 It looks like Microsoft is moving ( with its new
 operating system codename Longhorn) to completely
 managed code( see reports from their PDC).
 What does that mean for D? Will D compilers translate
 code to MSIL(microsoft intermediate language) to be
 excecuted by their virtual machine (CLR)?

 Albin


Oct 29 2003
next sibling parent reply davepermen <davepermen_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <bnot23$tgg$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Achilleas Margaritis says...
If D is a "systems" language, why does it have garbage collection (that
can't be turned off) ? It does not seem that I can make an O/S using D...

d. import gc; gc.disable(); gc.enable(); and for most stuff, even system stuff, gc is not something hurting at all. a potential memory leak is much more hurting. think of some service you set up that runs 24/7 and happens to leak memory on say a daily basis.. have fun debugging while waiting several days each time to actually measure that you leaked.. even microsoft is not sure yet how to bugfix exchange 2000 to not leak anymore and eat up ram more and more. system level stuff has to be good performing, sure. but it definitely have to be save. thats priority and THE reason why the gc is around everything. savety.
Oct 29 2003
next sibling parent "Lars Ivar Igesund" <larsivi stud.ntnu.no> writes:
"davepermen" <davepermen_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bnov1j$104l$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 In article <bnot23$tgg$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Achilleas Margaritis says...
If D is a "systems" language, why does it have garbage collection (that
can't be turned off) ? It does not seem that I can make an O/S using D...


 d.

 import gc;
 gc.disable();
 gc.enable();

Also, you can plug in your own gc. Or shut it down and overload the new operator and implement it using C's malloc, or even implement it using assembler. The choice is yours. It can all be done with D. Lars Ivar Igesund
Oct 29 2003
prev sibling parent "Matthew Wilson" <matthew-hat -stlsoft-dot.-org> writes:
I've not used it, so don't know, but I presume the disable() / enable() are
reference counted, and only when the rc is 0 is it on?

If that's not how it works, it should be

"davepermen" <davepermen_member pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:bnov1j$104l$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 In article <bnot23$tgg$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Achilleas Margaritis says...
If D is a "systems" language, why does it have garbage collection (that
can't be turned off) ? It does not seem that I can make an O/S using D...


 d.

 import gc;
 gc.disable();
 gc.enable();

 and for most stuff, even system stuff, gc is not something hurting at all.

 potential memory leak is much more hurting. think of some service you set

 that runs 24/7 and happens to leak memory on say a daily basis.. have fun
 debugging while waiting several days each time to actually measure that

 leaked..

 even microsoft is not sure yet how to bugfix exchange 2000 to not leak

 and eat up ram more and more.

 system level stuff has to be good performing, sure. but it definitely have

 save. thats priority and THE reason why the gc is around everything.


Oct 29 2003
prev sibling parent "Julio CÚsar Carrascal Urquijo" <adnoctum phreaker.net> writes:
"Achilleas Margaritis" <axilmar in.gr> wrote in message
news:bnot23$tgg$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 If D is a "systems" language, why does it have garbage collection (that
 can't be turned off) ? It does not seem that I can make an O/S using D...

There's a OS kernel writen in D at http://www.geocities.com/one_mad_alien/dkernel.html Haven't tried it thought.
Oct 29 2003
prev sibling next sibling parent "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> writes:
"Albin Pucnik" <albin.pucnik guest.arnes.si> wrote in message
news:bno9i3$2cd$1 digitaldaemon.com...
 Hi!
 It looks like Microsoft is moving ( with its new
 operating system codename Longhorn) to completely
 managed code( see reports from their PDC).
 What does that mean for D? Will D compilers translate
 code to MSIL(microsoft intermediate language) to be
 excecuted by their virtual machine (CLR)?

I haven't studied MSIL enough, but I think it's possible to do a D implementation for it. To start such a project, you'd need little more than the open source front end to D.
Oct 29 2003
prev sibling parent "C. Sauls" <ibisbasenji yahoo.com> writes:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/e/d/1/ed1ca94f-7330-4602-a053-703684d
b74bb/20031028LHORNDB.exe

Scary scary scary scary scary.  And don't beware the .EXE extension, its
just a wrapped .ZIP file holding a .WMV file.

 -- Chris S.
Nov 10 2003