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D - Perl - darkness to light

reply Mark Evans <Mark_member pathlink.com> writes:
I wrote,

 Perl wizards ... think Perl, and only Perl, offers what it offers.

Eric S. Raymond, the well known open-source luminary, demonstrates the truth of that assertion, but manages to overcome the odds anyway. This is his own story of escape from the Perl cave. http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=3882s http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/python-list/1323993 "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" describes Sirius Cybernetics products: "... it is easy to be blinded to the essential uselessness of them by the sense of achievement you get from getting them to work at all. In other words ... their fundamental design flaws are completely hidden by their superficial design flaws." Perl is popular, and so is junk food. Mark
Feb 27 2003
parent reply Bill Cox <bill viasic.com> writes:
Mark Evans wrote:
 I wrote,
 
 
Perl wizards ... think Perl, and only Perl, offers what it offers.

Eric S. Raymond, the well known open-source luminary, demonstrates the truth of that assertion, but manages to overcome the odds anyway. This is his own story of escape from the Perl cave. http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=3882s http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/python-list/1323993 "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" describes Sirius Cybernetics products: "... it is easy to be blinded to the essential uselessness of them by the sense of achievement you get from getting them to work at all. In other words ... their fundamental design flaws are completely hidden by their superficial design flaws." Perl is popular, and so is junk food. Mark

Hi, Mark. Perl is a language for the masses. Python is a language for you and me. Well... probably not even me. I have to write an enourmous Perl script in the next few months to do some grungy text manipulation. My client wants Perl, so his guys can work on it when I'm done. If I tried to use Python, I'd probably loose the whole deal. I possibly hate Perl more than any other human being... In some ways, it really sucks to be me. Bill
Feb 28 2003
next sibling parent reply anonymous <anonymous_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <3E5F4A5E.6060006 viasic.com>, Bill Cox says...
Mark Evans wrote:
 I wrote,
 
 
Perl wizards ... think Perl, and only Perl, offers what it offers.

Eric S. Raymond, the well known open-source luminary, demonstrates the truth of that assertion, but manages to overcome the odds anyway. This is his own story of escape from the Perl cave. http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=3882s http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/python-list/1323993 "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" describes Sirius Cybernetics products: "... it is easy to be blinded to the essential uselessness of them by the sense of achievement you get from getting them to work at all. In other words ... their fundamental design flaws are completely hidden by their superficial design flaws." Perl is popular, and so is junk food. Mark

Hi, Mark. Perl is a language for the masses. Python is a language for you and me. Well... probably not even me. I have to write an enourmous Perl script in the next few months to do some grungy text manipulation. My client wants Perl, so his guys can work on it when I'm done. If I tried to use Python, I'd probably loose the whole deal. I possibly hate Perl more than any other human being... In some ways, it really sucks to be me. Bill

You may not like Perl, but Perl is a vast improvement over sed and awk and previous scripting languages. It had a lot of features such as scalars and hashes and sigils and regular expressions built into the language. In fact it is much more ambitious and revolutionary in scope and scale than Python as there wasn't much before it. Perl begat the script wars. A war fought between the language Gods and there children and disciples. Scripting languages are like a religion with adherents. Some languages have cults. There is the Cult of the Serpent and the Cult of Wall and the Cult of Ruby. Language begat religion. The language Gods could add words or remove them and define language or remake a religion. Perl is more popular or widely used than Python and Python is probably inspired by Perl or inspires to be Perl. Python is the up and comer, the challenger. Perl is kind of a standard everyone aspires to improve upon. After Perl there was a lot of new development with scripting languages such as PHP and Python and Ruby. Perl also is designed by linguists and borrows from linguistics. There is a difference between generalist langauages and niche languages. PHP focuses on web development and Ruby and Python and Perl try to provide different functionality.
Feb 28 2003
next sibling parent reply Bill Cox <bill viasic.com> writes:
Hi, Mark.

Perl is a language for the masses.  Python is a language for you and me. 
 Well... probably not even me.

I have to write an enourmous Perl script in the next few months to do 
some grungy text manipulation.  My client wants Perl, so his guys can 
work on it when I'm done.  If I tried to use Python, I'd probably loose 
the whole deal.  I possibly hate Perl more than any other human being... 
 In some ways, it really sucks to be me.

Bill

You may not like Perl, but Perl is a vast improvement over sed and awk and previous scripting languages. It had a lot of features such as scalars and hashes and sigils and regular expressions built into the language. In fact it is much more ambitious and revolutionary in scope and scale than Python as there wasn't much before it. Perl begat the script wars. A war fought between the language Gods and there children and disciples. Scripting languages are like a religion with adherents. Some languages have cults. There is the Cult of the Serpent and the Cult of Wall and the Cult of Ruby. Language begat religion. The language Gods could add words or remove them and define language or remake a religion. Perl is more popular or widely used than Python and Python is probably inspired by Perl or inspires to be Perl. Python is the up and comer, the challenger. Perl is kind of a standard everyone aspires to improve upon. After Perl there was a lot of new development with scripting languages such as PHP and Python and Ruby. Perl also is designed by linguists and borrows from linguistics. There is a difference between generalist langauages and niche languages. PHP focuses on web development and Ruby and Python and Perl try to provide different functionality.

I don't mean to bash Perl. It is loved by a great many people, many of them smarter than me. I have respect for the guys who can make it do in a manner of minutes what would have taken me hours with awk, sed, and grep. It just rubs me the wrong way, is all. It has so many features, I can't remember them all. Bill
Feb 28 2003
parent "Mike Wynn" <mike.wynn l8night.co.uk> writes:
 Perl is more popular or widely used than Python and Python is probably


 by Perl or inspires to be Perl.  Python is the up and comer, the


 Perl is kind of a standard everyone aspires to improve upon. After Perl


 was a lot of new development with scripting languages such as PHP and


 Ruby.

 Perl also is designed by linguists and borrows from linguistics.

 There is a difference between generalist langauages and niche languages.
 PHP focuses on web development and Ruby and Python and Perl try to


 different functionality.

I don't mean to bash Perl. It is loved by a great many people, many of them smarter than me. I have respect for the guys who can make it do in a manner of minutes what would have taken me hours with awk, sed, and

 It just rubs me the wrong way, is all.  It has so many features, I can't
 remember them all.

and lets not forget TCL (personally I find it more obscure than perl athough its does not look quite a bad). is it just the opposite philosophy. Perl does what you want (more implict features than even the designers can rember) and Python where everything is explicit. that makes Python uses seem to have such hatred for Perl, I find is analagous to religion there seems more competition between the grandchildren of algo, than between them and algo's rivals grandchildren. D has implicit features, and there is not way (within the lang) to describe the class struct (the struct vtble changes for each class). this is just that ! and what about LUA for embedding into an app its better than any other lang I know (so far) I think a scheme/soid parser/interpreter might be smaller but algo derived langs have less brackets.
Feb 28 2003
prev sibling parent reply Ilya Minkov <midiclub 8ung.at> writes:
anonymous wrote:
 "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" describes Sirius 
 Cybernetics products: "... it is easy to be blinded to the 
 essential uselessness of them by the sense of achievement you get
 from getting them to work at all.  In other words ... their 
 fundamental design flaws are completely hidden by their 
 superficial design flaws."



Oh, it's wonderful, over and over it spends us single lines and whole passsages to apply to every possible subject. :) I'm being often called a paranoid android. Guess why.
 You may not like Perl, but Perl is a vast improvement over sed and 
 awk and previous scripting languages.  It had a lot of features such
 as scalars and hashes and sigils and regular expressions built into
 the language.  In fact it is much more ambitious and revolutionary
 in scope and scale than Python as there wasn't much before it.

First, python and perl are about equally old. Just perl is more of a hacker's design - it was a "simple" sed&awk replacement, but gradually grew into something of vast power, while python developers tried to do a fundamental design. Not that i'd consider it perfect. Perl syntax is C-ish. Not at all python. i'd consider it more innovative. At first i was afreid of it forcing formatting, but one day as i was counting my parenthesis in C... i just wished it would force it. Sure, it can be done with utilities. But i guess it also simplifies parsing and saves some lines of code. BTW, i thing C parenthesis are simply harder to keep track of than of keywords like begin...end. Basic collects all of the bad: it forces lines, but doesn't force identation. Bleah.
 Perl begat the script wars.  A war fought between the language Gods 
 and there children and disciples.  Scripting languages are like a 
 religion with adherents. Some languages have cults.  There is the 
 Cult of the Serpent and the Cult of Wall and the Cult of Ruby. 
 Language begat religion.  The language Gods could add words or remove
 them and define language or remake a religion.

C++ is also a cult. Really. It just needs a strong opposition to prove it, which has not been there till recently. :) There are lots of people who hate it, and lots who adore it.
 Perl is more popular or widely used than Python and Python is 
 probably inspired by Perl or inspires to be Perl.  Python is the up 
 and comer, the challenger. Perl is kind of a standard everyone 
 aspires to improve upon. After Perl there was a lot of new 
 development with scripting languages such as PHP and Python and Ruby.

Again, ruby is a new language, while python and perl are over 10 years old. They simply have different basic ideas, although they've (surprisingly) finally scaled to a similar application field. They are not inspired by each other in general, but you know, every language designer tries to inspire himself from *all* existing languages.
 Perl also is designed by linguists and borrows from linguistics.

Doesn't make much of this impression though... Daniel doesn't call himself a "linguist", but i guess a language he designs seems to make lots of sense in its domain. Walter is not a "linguist" either. It's more a question of common sence and experience, and of course luck, because this field is not 100% studied. It's not that i'd be "against" perl, but i guess python has had enough luck to evolve to what it has been designed to be, perl has not. Larry Wall wishes he had been more fundamental from the beginning on, but noone could know it back then... Now, perl6 might be better.
 There is a difference between generalist langauages and niche 
 languages. PHP focuses on web development and Ruby and Python and 
 Perl try to provide different functionality.

Makefile language. :) No, perl6 will cover all the python's functionality. -i.
Feb 28 2003
parent anonymous <anonymous_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <b3onl6$b0r$1 digitaldaemon.com>, Ilya Minkov says...
anonymous wrote:
 "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" describes Sirius 
 Cybernetics products: "... it is easy to be blinded to the 
 essential uselessness of them by the sense of achievement you get
 from getting them to work at all.  In other words ... their 
 fundamental design flaws are completely hidden by their 
 superficial design flaws."



Oh, it's wonderful, over and over it spends us single lines and whole passsages to apply to every possible subject. :) I'm being often called a paranoid android. Guess why.
 You may not like Perl, but Perl is a vast improvement over sed and 
 awk and previous scripting languages.  It had a lot of features such
 as scalars and hashes and sigils and regular expressions built into
 the language.  In fact it is much more ambitious and revolutionary
 in scope and scale than Python as there wasn't much before it.

First, python and perl are about equally old. Just perl is more of a hacker's design - it was a "simple" sed&awk replacement, but gradually grew into something of vast power, while python developers tried to do a fundamental design. Not that i'd consider it perfect. Perl syntax is C-ish. Not at all python. i'd consider it more innovative. At first i was afreid of it forcing formatting, but one day as i was counting my parenthesis in C... i just wished it would force it. Sure, it can be done with utilities. But i guess it also simplifies parsing and saves some lines of code. BTW, i thing C parenthesis are simply harder to keep track of than of keywords like begin...end. Basic collects all of the bad: it forces lines, but doesn't force identation. Bleah.
 Perl begat the script wars.  A war fought between the language Gods 
 and there children and disciples.  Scripting languages are like a 
 religion with adherents. Some languages have cults.  There is the 
 Cult of the Serpent and the Cult of Wall and the Cult of Ruby. 
 Language begat religion.  The language Gods could add words or remove
 them and define language or remake a religion.

C++ is also a cult. Really. It just needs a strong opposition to prove it, which has not been there till recently. :) There are lots of people who hate it, and lots who adore it.
 Perl is more popular or widely used than Python and Python is 
 probably inspired by Perl or inspires to be Perl.  Python is the up 
 and comer, the challenger. Perl is kind of a standard everyone 
 aspires to improve upon. After Perl there was a lot of new 
 development with scripting languages such as PHP and Python and Ruby.

Again, ruby is a new language, while python and perl are over 10 years old. They simply have different basic ideas, although they've (surprisingly) finally scaled to a similar application field. They are not inspired by each other in general, but you know, every language designer tries to inspire himself from *all* existing languages.
 Perl also is designed by linguists and borrows from linguistics.

Doesn't make much of this impression though... Daniel doesn't call himself a "linguist", but i guess a language he designs seems to make lots of sense in its domain. Walter is not a "linguist" either. It's more a question of common sence and experience, and of course luck, because this field is not 100% studied. It's not that i'd be "against" perl, but i guess python has had enough luck to evolve to what it has been designed to be, perl has not. Larry Wall wishes he had been more fundamental from the beginning on, but noone could know it back then... Now, perl6 might be better.
 There is a difference between generalist langauages and niche 
 languages. PHP focuses on web development and Ruby and Python and 
 Perl try to provide different functionality.

Makefile language. :) No, perl6 will cover all the python's functionality. -i.

Perl is 4 years older than Python. Perl 1.0 was released to Usenet in 1987 and in 1991 Perl 4.0 was released. Thats why Python has a simpler OO layer. Perls OO layer has a bolted on feel. Python was released in 1991. Also Perl attempts to cram as much as it can into the syntax and runs out of tokens to express the language. Perl favors complexity. Where the linguistics comes in is just to illustrate how a methodology can influence the design of a language. Perl has a complex grammar with regular expressions and sigils to denote hashes and arrays ect. There is also Perl Poetry with which you can write Poems in Perl. You can also borrow some items from syntax and grammar from other languages.
Feb 28 2003
prev sibling next sibling parent anonymous <anonymous_member pathlink.com> writes:
In article <3E5F4A5E.6060006 viasic.com>, Bill Cox says...
Mark Evans wrote:
 I wrote,
 
 
Perl wizards ... think Perl, and only Perl, offers what it offers.

Eric S. Raymond, the well known open-source luminary, demonstrates the truth of that assertion, but manages to overcome the odds anyway. This is his own story of escape from the Perl cave. http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=3882s http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/python-list/1323993 "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" describes Sirius Cybernetics products: "... it is easy to be blinded to the essential uselessness of them by the sense of achievement you get from getting them to work at all. In other words ... their fundamental design flaws are completely hidden by their superficial design flaws." Perl is popular, and so is junk food. Mark

Hi, Mark. Perl is a language for the masses. Python is a language for you and me. Well... probably not even me. I have to write an enourmous Perl script in the next few months to do some grungy text manipulation. My client wants Perl, so his guys can work on it when I'm done. If I tried to use Python, I'd probably loose the whole deal. I possibly hate Perl more than any other human being... In some ways, it really sucks to be me. Bill

You may not like Perl, but Perl is a vast improvement over sed and awk and previous scripting languages. It had a lot of features such as scalars and hashes and sigils and regular expressions built into the language. In fact it is much more ambitious and revolutionary in scope and scale than Python as there wasn't much before it. Perl begat the script wars. A war fought between the language Gods and there children and disciples. Scripting languages are like a religion with adherents. Some languages have cults. There is the Cult of the Serpent and the Cult of Wall and the Cult of Ruby. Language begat religion. The language Gods could add words or remove them and define language or remake a religion. Perl is more popular or widely used than Python and Python is probably inspired by Perl or inspires to be Perl. Python is the up and comer, the challenger. Perl is kind of a standard everyone aspires to improve upon. After Perl there was a lot of new development with scripting languages such as PHP and Python and Ruby. Perl also is designed by linguists and borrows from linguistics. There is a difference between generalist langauages and niche languages. PHP focuses on web development and Ruby and Python and Perl try to provide different functionality.
Feb 28 2003
prev sibling parent Mark Evans <Mark_member pathlink.com> writes:
Perl is a language for the masses.  Python is a language for you and me. 

Python is easier for the masses. Take the Eric S. Raymond challenge and try it.
I have to write an enourmous Perl script in the next few months to do 
some grungy text manipulation.  My client wants Perl...

Python has regex and Unicode. Do your Perl solution, and then write a Python equivalent. Show the client both versions, and ask for extra cash if he wants the Python code. It may be an enlightening experience for both of you.
 The excitement I've seen in programmer's eyes as they read the
 [Perl] spec remind me of my children at Christmas.

A bit like the starving African children who are happy with broken third-hand toys because it's all they've ever seen.
 I'd have to guess you're still in your youthful 20's.

Funny, I picture you in your early teens. I'm 34.
 I envy your idealistic enthusiasm for language design. The real
 world is Dilbert Land.

We are not designing a language for Dilbert's company. (If that's the goal then I'm outta here.)
 Most Perl wizards aren't ignorant...  They CHOSE to be Perl wizards, and 
 would again knowing everything you know.

Right, typical cult behavior: there is One Truth and the Ascended Masters will yield to no other. Mark
Feb 28 2003